[Please go to updated June 2022 version of this post.]
(Oct. 2018) Probiotics and sinusitis treatment go hand in hand. In the last few years researchers found that one probiotic (beneficial bacteria) that chronic sinusitis sufferers lack and that treats and cures sinusitis is Lactobacillus sakei. And for many, major improvement may take only days!
The researchers Abreu et al found in their 2012 study that not only do sinusitis sufferers lack L. sakei, they have too much of some other bacteria, and they also don't have the bacteria diversity in their sinuses that healthy people without sinusitis have. In other words, the sinus microbiome (microbial community) is out of whack (dysbiosis). A number of studies since then also found that there is a depletion of some bacterial species, and an increase in "abundance" of other species in those with chronic sinusitis.
Luckily Lactobacillus sakei is found in some foods (such as some brands of live fermented kimchi), some sausage starter cultures (such as B-2), and recently in some probiotic supplements (e.g. Lanto Sinus). One reason it is used in sausage starter cultures is because L. sakei dominates over and inhibits growth of pathogenic bacteria, including Staphylococcus aureus. This post discusses these L. sakei products and other possible probiotic treatments for sinusitis.
Treating sinusitis with beneficial bacteria (rather than with antibiotics, corticosteroid nasal sprays, and surgery) is the future in sinusitis treatment.
BACKGROUND STORY: More than 5 years ago there were no probiotics containing L. sakei. None. So I experimented using a very easy kimchi sinusitis treatment (basically dabbing and smearing kimchi at certain stages of fermentation into my nostrils like a very messy eater) and found that it cured my chronic sinusitis of many years within two weeks. Obviously it contained L. sakei. Then the rest of my family also tried the kimchi treatment and were also quickly cured of chronic sinusitis! It felt miraculous, especially because it was so easy to do.
After 5 years we still feel great! Generally we only need to treat again with a product containing Lactobacillus sakei (we've been using refrigerated Lanto Sinus) after a virus which goes into sinusitis, or if for some other reason we feel like we're sliding into sinusitis. We've improved every year so need to do it less and more minimally.
Because we no longer have chronic sinusitis and can easily treat sinusitis if it occurs with L. sakei, we have NOT taken antibiotics or any other bacteria killing spray or product (such as xylitol) for over 5 years. We do not use cortisone or antihistamine nasal sprays either.
WHEN A TREATMENT WORKS: A number of you have contacted me to report your own progress with various sinusitis treatments. People used terms such as "miraculous", "transformative", and "fabulous" when they had positive results with a product containing L. sakei - and many with major improvement happening within a few days. I’ve also heard from a few people of some other beneficial bacteria species that may treat sinusitis.
When a treatment works, then all sinusitis symptoms go away --sometimes within days, sometimes longer. This includes post nasal drip, sinus headaches, "clogged ears", bad breath, and sinusitis-related coughs. Even tonsil stones! (Please note that trying such products to treat sinusitis is self-experimentation - effects can be positive or negative. One should always be cautious.)
OVERALL RESULTS: The majority of people contacting me with results reported positive results (chronic sinusitis greatly improved or totally gone) from some form of L. sakei treatment. Successes have been reported to me from the USA, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Africa. But since it's from self-experimentation and not a clinical trial, then I don't know the actual percentage of positive results.
Some of the people reporting success have had multiple operations, some currently have deviated septums, some with nasal polyps, and all have had long-standing chronic sinusitis, some for decades. Interestingly, Lactobacillus sakei works best when it is used only when needed, when there are sinus symptoms. Don't use when feeling healthy.
Those same chronic sinusitis sufferers also reported that the same treatments also worked to treat acute sinusitis or sinus infections. It seems that after colds or viruses may develop acute sinusitis again and need re-treatment (apparently the L. sakei frequently doesn't stay in the sinuses from earlier treatments). However, the sinuses do continue improving over time so fewer and more minimal treatments are needed over the years.
Another very small group reported that other probiotic strains helped, and a minority of people reported that nothing has helped and there could be a variety of reasons for this (see below). Some people reported that one product helped, but not another - whether kimchi or a L. sakei product. It also became clear that L. sakei does not treat seasonal allergies or allergy symptoms.
THREE MAIN PRODUCT CATEGORIES: The main categories of products containing live Lactobacillus sakei are:: kimchi (and some sauerkraut), refrigerated products, and frozen products. Note that at this time the FDA does not allow any probiotics to be sold as a medical treatment – they can only be sold as a supplement.
Using the following products to treat sinusitis is self-experimentation (results are unknown and can vary). Always be cautious when testing a new product. (See Sinusitis Treament Summary page for treatment methods.)
KIMCHI - Many people report that kimchi helped them. One person reported a homemade kimchi worked great (he was finally symptom free after 8 years). A few have even mentioned that kimchi has helped sinusitis with fungal problems.
Kimchi brands that people reported helping their chronic sinusitis: Sunja's Kimchi (mild white kimchi and medium spicy cucumber kimchi), Sinto Gourmet brand kimchi, Mama-O's Premium Kimchi, the white Napa kimchi and cabbage kimchi made by Choi's Kimchi Company (in Portland, Oregon), Farmhouse Culture Kimchi (in California), Ozuke Kimchi (in Colorado), Mother-in-law's Kimchi, in the United Kingdom the brand Mr Kimchi, and in Australia Kehoe's Kitchen white kimchi.
(Not all kimchi brands or types of kimchi within brands contain L. sakei - finding one that has it is due to self-experimentation. The kimchi must be live, and not pasteurized. We found that kimchi may contain L. sakei from about day 14 (or earlier) to about 2 to 2 1/2 months (from the day it's made).
When the kimchi contained L. sakei we felt the same or started feeling better within one or 2 days. If we felt more mucusy over the next 2 days, or the acute sinusitis kept getting worse, than it did not contain L. sakei.) Some researchers feel that it's the garlic in kimchi that encourages L. sakei growth.
SAUERKRAUT - Some people improved with sauerkraut made with garlic. Some researchers feel that it's the garlic in kimchi that encourages L. sakei growth, and sauerkraut typically doesn't contain garlic.
REFRIGERATED LACTOBACILLUS SAKEI PRODUCTS – A refrigerated L. sakei product specifically meant for the sinuses is now available. The company Lanto Health has introduced a kimchi derived Lactobacillus sakei product called Lanto Sinus - to be used when needed (when there are symptoms). Lanto Sinus is sold as a dietary supplement, holds up well in the refrigerator, is effective, quick-acting, and easy to use. This high-quality product ships well because it holds up for a while (days) without refrigeration.
People have reported success using it mixed with bottled water (dabbing, smearing, spooning a little in nostrils), or swishing it dry in the mouth. I’ve been a consultant with Lanto Health on this product and have been testing and using this product successfully for over a year (self-experimentation!).
FROZEN LACTOBACILLUS SAKEI PRODUCTS – The main L. sakei products available in many countries throughout the world are various frozen sausage starter cultures. All L. sakei products needing to be kept frozen are generally reliable and effective for sinusitis treatment. They should only be used when needed. But negatives with all frozen L. sakei products are that they must be kept frozen, they don’t hold up well once the package is opened, and they can easily die off during shipping.
Sausage starter cultures include BACTOFERM F-RM-52 (many countries, made by Chr. Hansen), PRIMAL SK NATUR 50 (Europe, made by Van Hees), and BITEC LS-25 (Europe, made by Frusarum). These starter cultures contain 2 types of bacteria (L. sakei and Staphylococcus carnosus) – little is known about S. carnosus, but it is considered non-pathogenic, and no one has reported negative effects from it. B-2, which is only L. sakei (made by Chr Hansen), is available in New Zealand and some EU countries. The starter culture BACTOFERM SM 160 (L. sakei, Staphylococcus carnosus and Debaryomyces hansenii) has also been used successfully for chronic sinusitis. But one should be very cautious because while the third bacteria is considered non-pathogenic, is common in food products, is used commercially to make B12 - it is a yeast species (fungi).
Most use a frozen product by dabbing/smearing or spooning a little of the mixture (L. sakei and bottled water) into the nostrils. Sometimes a side effect on the day the product is used is a dry mouth and throat (and they can be very dry when overused - so it's important to use only a little in a treatment). The person who used the nasal aspirator reported a temporary decrease in her sense of smell.
[NOTE: I personally have overuse concerns (too strong a dose) with using L. sakei in a neti pot or nasal syringe, and so have never used any L. sakei product that way. My personal view: let the little suckers travel up to the sinuses on their own. And they do. And I always start first with the most cautious way to see if that works.]
SOME L.SAKEI ISSUES: I still think of L. sakei as fairly fragile – for example, it is killed off by antibiotics, by oxygen, and it only lives a limited amount of time at room temperature. [For ex.: the culture Bactoferm F-RM-52 package says that it dies off in less than 2 weeks at room temperature - therefore store in freezer.] On the other hand, many different Lactobacillus strains live and multiply in our bodies at 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit - so L. sakei can handle warm temperatures just fine for a while.
Note that the L. sakei in any product can also die off during shipping if it takes too long, it’s too hot (e.g. inside hot postal vehicles in extreme heat), or some other reason. Thus we order 2 day shipping (if possible) and hope for the best. (Note: Consider overnight shipping during 100+degree Fahrenheit heat waves. Also, USPS delivers to mailboxes, while UPS typically delivers to the door.)
WHY DOESN'T L. SAKEI WORK FOR SOME PEOPLE? Some possibilities to explain why some people trying various L. sakei products has not resulted in their sinusitis improving is that perhaps some other "keystone species" (a very important microbial species for a normal healthy community) besides L. sakei is missing in their sinus microbiomes. Or perhaps they have microbes that the L.sakei bacteria cannot overcome.
It is unclear whether the results are different if there are also nasal polyps. Researchers now suspect that those with nasal polyps also have a problem with "primary inflammation". We (modern medicine) know so little about the normal healthy sinus microbiome that there are many unanswered questions.
PROBLEM WITH A PRODUCT SUDDENLY NOT WORKING, OR OVERUSE - Several people reported that a kimchi brand or L. sakei product that originally worked for them suddenly stopped working or not as well, but usually it had been the only product used for a while. There may be a feeling of "imbalance" or on rare occasion some symptoms (e.g. more mucus, sore throat). We think this might be an issue of "too much of certain microbes".
Then we (family members) have found that immediately switching to another product (e.g., from one brand or type of kimchi to another), or from a L. sakei product to kimchi, or swishing an opened capsule (the dry powder) of multi-strain probiotics, or refrigerated L.sakei in the mouth (this last if switching from kimchi) has corrected the situation for us. (Finding what works is self-experimentation, and varies from time to time.). And weeks later, we can use the original product once again. This is also why we only use a product when needed.
BOTTOM LINE: When feeling good or healthy, stop using the L. sakei product. Use L. sakei products sparingly - only as needed (e.g. when developing sinusitis). Using less is better than more over time – probably due to sinus microbial communities improving over the years. L. sakei seems to be necessary for sinusitis treatment for most people (a keystone bacteria), but there are also other important microbes in the sinuses - a whole community.
OTHER PROBIOTICS MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BENEFICIAL EFFECTS - Rarely some people have reported that multi- strain probiotics (but they did not contain L. sakei) treated their sinusitis. They mixed the powder in the capsules with water and smeared or dabbed the mixture in the nose, or even used it in a saline rinse (this last was rare). Different brands containing different mixtures of bacteria (Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium) have been mentioned - but all were refrigerated probiotics - so nothing stands out.
On the other hand, other people (including my family members) reported trying various multi-strain probiotics containing various Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium species in the nostrils and found it did not help sinusitis. However, we found that when we feel a little “imbalanced” – perhaps a cough or mucusy – then swishing the dry powder from one capsule in the mouth and then swallowing it - frequently results in some improvement (perhaps with a cough).
I have concerns with products that also contain titanium dioxide – this is because it may be in nanoparticle form, and recent studies have raised concerns that the nanoparticles can travel to other organs in the body, and are also inflammatory. So read the ingredients!
STILL UNKNOWN: Some multi-strain probiotics now contain L. sakei, but may be problematic if they don’t need refrigeration (e.g. Multi-strain Probiotic by Innovix Labs). L. sakei products typically die after a few weeks without refrigeration, and die when exposed to oxygen (anaerobic). So...while the L. sakei may be alive when the product is produced, is it alive weeks or months later at room temperature?
Also, will a multi-strain probiotic containing both L. sakei and S. salivarius K12 (such as Pro-Kids ENT by Hyperbiotics) help or make things worse for those with sinusitis? S. salivarius K12 has caused problems for some people (scroll down to "Problems With BLIS K12?").
NO EVIDENCE FOR JUST SWALLOWING PROBIOTIC SUPPLEMENTS: Evidence (my family, people writing in, research) so far has been that only directly dabbing/applying probiotics in the nose, or even swishing probiotics in the mouth may help treat sinusitis. I have not found any studies finding that just swallowing a probiotic pill has helped sinusitis (including a 2009 study looking at swallowing L. rhamnosus tablets 2 times daily for 4 weeks).
PROMISING PHAGE THERAPY - Some researchers in the USA and Australia are currently testing phage therapy to see if it could be used as a treatment for chronic sinusitis. A bacteriophage is a virus that infects bacteria, and the name literally means "bacteria eater". Phage therapy is the therapeutic use of bacteriophages to treat bacterial infections. See the June 3, 2016 post Phage Therapy May Help Sinusitis Sufferers for more information.
The authors of one study I posted said that they had found evidence for people having "virus-like particles" in their sinuses, which they thought were bacteriophages.
SNOT TRANSPLANTS IN THE FUTURE? – Currently a “snot transplant” study from healthy persons to sinusitis sufferers is going on in Europe to see if it works as a sinusitis treatment. This possibility may work great, but researchers have the same concerns as with fecal microbial transplants (stool transplant) for the gut. For example, are diseases also being transplanted?
PROBLEMS WITH BLIS K12 ? - Some people (and family members) tried the probiotic BLIS K12 bacteria (also known as Streptococcus salivarius BLIS K12), but found it brought on sinusitis-type symptoms. Scientific research finds it to be an immune booster and it lowers the incidence of upper respiratory infections. But not for us - from the first tablet (ate it by slowly dissolving it in the mouth) there were problems - feeling phlegmy and yellow mucus.
Several persons reported similar negative effects with PRO-dental tablets, which also contains BLIS K12. The message here is clear: these specific bacteria did not react well with our sinus and oral bacterial communities. Remember, whenever one introduces new bacteria into the human organism, there can be positive or negative effects.
PLEASE WRITE! I would really like to hear how you are treating and curing your sinusitis, especially chronic sinusitis. Or even what hasn't worked. It all adds to the knowledge base. Write to me privately, or can comment after any post.
(Note that most comments are after this post, the SINUSITIS TREATMENT SUMMARY page, the CONTACT page, and other sinusitis posts - see category SINUSITIS).
Hello. Found your site from Chris Kresser article on chronic sinusitis recently. Very interesting. Could you tell me the ingredients for the Sunja's cucumber kimchi? I tried looking online but the ingredients I found did not say it contained cucumber - so I assumed it was wrong. Does it actually contain cucumber? You mentioned a recipe that someone had luck with. Could you post a link to that recipe? Thanks for blogging about your experiments.
According to the jar label, Sunja's Medium Spicy Cucumber Kimchi contains:cabbage, cucumbers, carrots, red peppers, leeks, green onions, garlic, ginger, crushed red pepper, sea salt.
Unfortunately I have not received a good kimchi recipe (one that contains L. sakei and treats sinusitis) from anyone. But if I get one, I will post it.
That's really interesting that the Bactoferm F-RM-52 can result in dry mouth and sinuses. I was thinking that if anything would dry out sinuses it would be the hot spices in the kimchee. (According to tradtional chinese medicine, an excess of hot, pungent food or spice is very yang -- very drying, unless balanced with yin foods.)
Does the Bactoferm F-RM-52 have a spicey taste to it?
Thanks in advance!
Yes, the kimchi has a temporary decongestant effect from the spices. The Bactoferm F-RM-52 has no taste or smell, but there's a lot of L. sakei in it - thus it can have a drying effect for a while.
Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you.
That's a little concerning as I'm so dry overall, but I'm thinking it's because I've been eating too low fat for too long, But maybe if it's temporary I could handle it.
Have you heard of anyone who's developed dry eyes as a result of the bactoferm?
No, I have not heard of anyone developing dry eyes from Bactoferm F-RM-52.
We only felt dry temporarily in the throat and sinuses when we overused it. Normally using it just gives a regular good feeling - no more dripping phlegm or mucus and the sinuses feel better. L.sakei is normally found in healthy sinuses.
This is vague and possibly unhelpful, but at some point in the past year I ran across a mention of L.sakei as present in a healthy lung micro biome. Which would make sense, given that the sinuses drip down into the lungs.
Very interesting. And just recently I posted about a study in which L. sakei appears to be in the gut of most people, and again it appears to be beneficial.
I have terrible dry eyes, but for me I think it's not the L. sakei but the sinus infection itself that seems to block tear duct production. When I'm more congested in upper sinuses my eyes produce fewer tears. When congestion clears up and it drains, I can clearly feel my eyes starting to produce tears. I'm baffled bc no ENT seems to buy into this, but for me it's clear as day.
I’m glad I found your site. Hopefully you continue posting and don’t give up due to “life” getting busy.
I have gone through 3 sinus surgeries now and about to go through a 4th. I’m on 3 antibiotics, Berberine and Bismuth Citrate now for the next 14 days (have to do this every few months) to try and open my ears up and knock back a serious sinus infection that causes bronchitis and that never seems to go away. I’m also on daily prednisone and have been for the past 5 years due to my airways constantly being inflamed from these sinus infections.
Occasionally I will blow hard, rubbery, substances out of my nose, that can only be cut from using a knife, so I know my sinuses are still full of fungus from living in Louisiana my entire life. Louisiana has more mold and fungus in homes and in the soil than any other state in the country. I just moved to North Idaho to try and get away from it all.
Saying all of this, I’m in desperate need of help because I don’t have the funds to go through yet another sinus surgery. I just started with the Lanto Sinus product and praying for a miracle. From all of my research, everything has pointed to 90%+ of all chronic sinus infections to be fungal/mold. I believe that is true.
Thank you so much for this site.
Glad that the site is giving you hope. I hope Lactobacillus sakei works for you!
Just one thing - please don't use L. sakei (Lanto Sinus) while taking antibiotics. The antibiotics kill both harmful and beneficial bacteria, including L. sakei.
The time to use it is when you are having some sinusitis symptoms (sliding towards sinusitis), but not taking antibiotics. Corticosteroids are OK, as is using saline nasal rinses (salt, baking soda, water).
Try to sniff small amounts of organic golden seal powder
it helped me with fungus.
I have daily heartburn if I eat fermented foods or spicy/pungent foods. Turmeric also makes me feel awful, even in small amounts. And I have allergy/sinus problems which my ENT feels are mold based (mainly the sinuses around and above my eyes...nose is clear). We live near a river, which doesn't help where molds are concerned. I'm hoping that a probiotic for the nose will help me. Inflammation is not good!
Why don’t you try Lacto Sinus?
I’ve used it since it became available and it totally got rid of my sinusitis.
I’ve tried other products this year, but this one was the best. And I think it holds up better than the frozen stuff.
I agree with Luke’s comments about Lacto Sinus. It works great! I also tried all the L. sakei products out there and found it works much better than any of the frozen powders.
What makes the L. sakei grow in kimchi? Does anyone know? I am going to make my own Kimch according to Korean recipe, but would like to avoid any spices which are not necessary (my stomach does not like spices so I assume also will not make me good in nostrils). I will use garlic for sure as you guess this supports growth of L. sakei. However there is an alternative explanation for garlic being useful to treat sinusitis by kimchi: garlic itself has strong anti-viral and anti-bacterial effects (which I tried out very successfully for some other conditions).
Sima, thank you very much for all of thes information ! I tried to dillute a bit of local kimchi (with oyster) in pure water and sniffed it into my nose. It seems to work well! In 24 hours, the sinusitis went down by half at least (though I do not know how much of this was due natural healing process).
The conditions during the process of fermentation encourage the growth of L. sakei, but it is thought that L. sakei is already on the raw garlic (and leeks) in small amounts (see post).
Do u eat the kimchi daily?
The first year I (and my family) ate kimchi several times a week (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 cup with a meal), the second year less, and this year only occasionally. This is because we generally only eat it when we have an open jar (for sinusitis treatment - which this year is rarely needed), and we also noticed during the first year that eating it made absolutely no difference in treating sinusitis. But it's a great health food (cabbage, spices)and I should go back to eating more.
Through the years I've tried everything for sinus infections and nothing but antibiotics helped. When I read about kimchi helping I tried that too. To my utter delight and relief, Sunja's white kimchi worked a miracle! I bought another 3 jars and keep it in the refrigerator for the next bout.
Thank you for your very helpful site and related information on an alternative and hopefully more sustainable approach to treat chronic sinusitis. Through the years I also had my moments with sinusitis and considered myself an expert to treat the condition but I could never "cure" it, at best "manage" it. During the course of 2015 however it was Sinusitis 1, Marius 0...
My question is: I can rather easily get Bactoferm SM-160, F-RM-52 needs to be shipped specifically from Denmark. SM 160 contains Lactobacillus sakei, Staphylococcus carnosus and Debaryomyces hansenii. Posts refer to success with products containing the first two with L.Sakei the real bacteria you are looking for. But is the yeast Debaryomyces hansenii ok to irrigate the nose with?
I don't know if it's OK. You are the first person to mention this product. and I have not seen this product on any American site.
I did some quick research and it appears that Debaryomyces hansenii is considered "non-pathogenic", and is common in food products (cheeses, processed meat, and early stages of soy fermentation). One study said D. hansenii secretes toxins capable of killing other yeasts, and it is used on an industrial scale to produce vitamin B2.
The medical literature said D. hansenii may rarely cause human fungal infections or catheter-related bloodstream infections, but perhaps it may occur even more rarely because it is confused with other species, thus misidentified (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566122/).
So it's a big unknown, especially because sinusitis sufferers have sinus microbiomes that are out-of-whack.
But on the other hand, shipping from Denmark may cause the L. sakei to die during shipping, but at least many users, including myself, have not found any problems so far with Bactoferm F-RM-52. For me personally, I would be hesitant adding another unknown microbe to the mixture I put in my nostrils.
When looking at pending patents (being tested currently) of nasal probiotic products that are anti-pathogenic and meant for treatment of sinusitis, there is a focus on Lactobacillus species - especially L. sakei and L. rhamnosus.
No matter what you decide, I recommend that any L. sakei product be used cautiously, like a "very messy eater", especially if it is unknown if the L. sakei is alive in the mixture.
Thank you very much, think I'll try it but I will be careful. I don' really have a good alternative option.
I have been pollinating my sinuses with Bactoferm SM 160 (contains Lactobacillus sakei, Staphylococcus carnosus and Debaryomyces hansenii) for about a week and so far so good. After years of chronic sinusitis, symptoms are almost gone! I still see signs of minor infection but mucus secretion and post nasal drip almost back to normal, trust another week or so and everything will be normal again. Question: Is it advisable to still irrigate with saline solution e.g. Salex while L.Sakei is still colonizing? If yes, what about adding small quantity of baby shampoo to the saline solution? The reason for this is that sometimes my nose is not 100% clear yet.
This is great news!
I really don't know if irrigating with saline solution (salt, baking soda, water) has any negative effects on Lactobacillus sakei. My family did it the first year - but we always had at least one hour between a treatment and saline solution irrigation. We no longer use saline solution because we no longer need it.
However, I would not use baby shampoo because it has negative effects on bacteria - and L. sakei is bacteria.
By the way, after we use Bactoferm F-RM-52 several days in a row, we find that we continue improving even after we stop using the Bactoferm F-RM-52 mixture. And then re-treat if necessary.
Also, nowadays I may have a little yellow in my nasal mucus sometimes, but if there are no other symptoms and I feel good, then I ignore it - because all is fine.
Great, that makes sense! Thanks for the reply and support.
Someone mentioned buying Sunja's Cucumber Kemchi online because I can't find it anywhere in my area. Does anyone know if it comes in ice if shipped directly form their company. If not, wouldn't that kill the L sakei in it? Thanks!
Yes, it can be ordered online, but asking for recently produced (in the past month) kimchi and quick shipping is best. It is not shipped in ice because my understanding is that refrigeration is not necessary initially. This is why I would try brands from local stores first.
Has anybody ever used New York brand Kimchi? and does it contain L. Sakei? I bought some and started last night. i felt more open in my sinus region after using it. But this morning i felt pressure in the sinuses, moreso than what had been before I even did a treatment.
I have also ordered L. Sakei direct from a sausage making website and now await delivery. I was on antibiotics a month ago and just discovered this website. I am hopeful that I can restore normal flora in my sinuses.
It sounds like the spices and garlic in the kimchi had a temporary decongestant effect. But perhaps none or minimal L. sakei in this jar of kimchi.
Thanks for the reply Sima. The strange thing is that even though I had what I believe to be a sinus pressure headache, my passages remained open. it's possible the spices are just decongesting things as you said.
I used it again last night and my sinuses were wide open again, moreso than I think I have felt in many months. But the pressure headache feeling remained again this morning even though I am not congested. I'm not sure if it's a result of the kimchi or a side effect of singulair medication I have began taking in recent weeks which I intend on discontinuing. I will continue to update on my results.
On occasion I've had times with sinus headache that made me squint with eye pain too, and would, oddly make me almost narcoleptic in little bouts, BUT my breathing "seemed" clear. I would put in the spout of the neti pot and be so surprised to find I couldn't pour saline through. I think we can can have individual sinuses blocked like cement and causing pain, but others clear at times. Does this sound plausible?
Thanks for this information! I have suffered for more than four weeks this year with a sinusitis infect. Years before also. However, I thought give it a try based on your information and created a saline solution with intestine probiotics. The probitic contains Lactobacillus acidophilus , Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Bifidobacterium lactis, bifidobacterium breve and Streptococcus thermophilus. Based on the probiotic information leaflet it was a mix with approx. 50 billions of probiotic in 250ml saline solution. After around one hour I thought my nose is dancing samba and tons of yellow slime come out of my nose for around six hours. After this event only clear slime for half a day and since this the sinusitis was gone. Amaizing effect! It is no four week since this test and I am taking every day this saline solution with approx. 12 billions as a protection against colds around me. So far no issue with my nose or sinusitis anymore. Thanks so much for this hint!
All the best from Germany.
Martin
This is great news! Thanks for the information.
Martin--
Do you know the concentration of the saline solution you are using? Is it .9% (normal) saline, or a hypertonic solution?
Also, are you willing/able to publish the name of the probiotic so I may see if I can get it here in the US?
Vielen Dank! 🙂
Michael
I wish we had LIKE and little heart buttons here, for some of these posts, like on Facebook. Okay, I'm half kidding, but only half. My spirits SOAR when I read success stories like yours, Martin! Thank you.
Martin, Was is the intestine probiotics that you used, can you provide more information on the product?
Thanks Martin and good to hear of your success.
May I ask you Martin what was this probiotic product that you got ?
I am using kimchi for chronic sinus infection after reading all of Mara's articals. Want to try that too.
Did you do nasal spray with it or neti pot ?
I have suffered with chronic sinusitis for the past 6 years. I have had surgery 3 times to try and solve this, it never did and usually resulted in infections which were treated with prednisone (anti- cortisteroid) and various anti-biotics . After about a year and a half from the first operation the the eosinophilia sinusitis then developed into eosinophilia pneumonia (lung biopsy in hospital) and blood tests showed the white cell count being sky high. I was admitted to hospital, 3 nights in intensive care and a month total spent there. I lost a lot of weight (not from the hospital food) and very nearly died from this as my lungs were saturated with eosinophilia cells.
For the past 2 years I have not taken any antibiotics, have followed a very healthy almost paleo diet - no dairy, eggs (IGG tests indicated i should not have any in my diet) take probiotics and supplements regularly.
I ordered the B.E.S.T. process Trace Minerals from Amazon and used them for over 2 weeks and although I did feel an improvement after a few days they didn't work. I then tried the kimchi treatment. Because I live in Australia I wasn't able to order the brands you specify through the internet, so I made my own. I tried this for a few days and again felt a slight improvement but it didn't work. After 18 days of being drug free and trying these natural treatments I feel the pneumonia returning after shortness of breath, fever and sweating last night and will have to start taking the prednisone again to get the eosinophilia cells back to normal.
I am very interested if anybody else has had a similar experience and if so how they treated it particularly if it was naturally. This does stem from the sinuses and I am hoping there might be a natural cure for it without prednisone and its side effects.
Thanks for all the good information you have been providing
Paul
Whew...you've been through a lot. So far no one has written in with a similar story, but it would be great to hear from others.
I found it interesting that you had a slight improvement for a few days with kimchi because that sent bacteria up to the sinuses. But the problem with kimchi is that it is unknown how much L. sakei (if any) it contains.
Please check this post now and then because I update possible sinusitis treatments as more information comes in from others.
Have you been tested for MARCoNS (multi-antibiotic resistant staph)? It's more common than doctor's seem to understand, almost never tested for, and lives in the sinuses. Tends to come from folks with pets, especially dogs. Very, very hard to treat.
Thanks for the reply. No I don't think I have been tested for MARCons. In fact I'd never heard of it until you brought this up. I have had blood tests previously for pet dander, dust and a few other things, telling me I was not allergic to any of these . We have a dog and cat so I might take a look at this.
Thanks
I've been around LOTS of dogs 24/7 for many years and my sinuses are worsening. How expensive is testing for this? Getting a doc to test for it may be difficult if it's expensive.
Months later I have yet to try l. sakei or kimchi, but have decided to take the plunge, dry sinuses or not. My sinuses just don't drain -- they NEVER run -- or anything, but this chronic infection has drained the life from me.
This morning I found a link between dust allergies and l. plantarum, and also found a study (in mice) showing that the plantarum was found in kimchi. So if some have an unknown issue with dust mites, perhaps that's another reason that people are finding benefit from kimchi?
Here's the study (and there are others):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22726349
Interesting. Thanks. The bacteria L. plantarum are also in the probiotic supplements that people have found to help sinusitis.
Kelly,
Have you been tested for MARCoNS (multi-antibiotic resistant staph)? It's more common than doctor's seem to understand, almost never tested for, and lives in the sinuses. Tends to come from folks with pets, especially dogs. Very, very hard to treat.
whoops. This was meant for Paul above...
I tried Fem Dophilus today from reading all this. Good results! I gave up on L. sakei after trying meat, sake and kimchi. Fem Dophilus treats E. coli, and I read that E. coli was found during surgery for someone's nasal polyps and infections. I also read it was a normal nasal bacteria. The other probiotic strain in it is L. reuteri. Both help with UTI issues (kidney was its 1st application) as well as digestion. Well, maybe this is all related to what happens in the gut! Plus I did read L rhamnosus can help sinuses. Anyway, after years of horror I had been treating my sinuses with essential oils in sinus rinse, which had at last kept a fierce sinus/jaw/dental/ear infection at bay. It was better than Minocycline packed in my upper teeth, meds in sinus rinse, allergy meds, sprays, etc). It never killed all of the infection but 2-3X a day stopped the destruction. Well: now I used a whole capsule in Neilmed saline sinus rinse. No discomfort, & it started thinning the mucous immediately!!! I want to "repopulate", so I'll keep trying it. I'm so excited that I already posted this on my FB page, talkhealthtome. It's a few posts down where you'll see a med student's personal technique for better sinus rinsing called "Flip & Turn" - a technique that has been helping reduce biofilm & gets the upper sinuses better while protecting your ears. May you find what works for you!
Fran - could you please tell me which essential oils you were using in your sinus rinse for your sinus/jaw/dental infection that helped? I have something similar and nothing has worked so far. The pain is ridiculous. Thank you!
Oops I mean that L. rhamnosus (in Fem Dophilus) is normal in the nose. It is still helping. By the way I remember once when I bought a fresh batch of kim-chi at a farmer's market which did help & helped other issues as well. Thanks for postig which brands have L. sakei.
I suspect that Lactobacillus rhamnosus may be giving you the good results. That's the main bacteria in the nasal spray for sinusitis being developed in Europe, and the common bacteria in all the multistrain probiotic supplements that people had good results with.
I'm confused. On this page:
https://lactobacto.com/tag/lactobacillus-rhamnosus/
…you state that "Lactobacillus rhamnosus was not found to be effective against sinusitis. "
???
You're correct, I had forgotten that research - that was in the post that I did in May 2014 reviewing the latest medical sinusitis research: "Lactobacillus rhamnosus was not found to be effective against sinusitis." The original study link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19201289. However, in that study the patients took L. rhamnosus orally (ate it) rather than spraying it into the nose. (Thanks, I updated this post today pointing this out.)
And yet researchers in Europe are currently working on a nasal spray using Lactobacillus rhamnosus. Surely they have research results supporting L. rhamnosus??? Which is why I still think that it may be a good probiotic (but still unknown).
I just quickly reviewed the medical research literature for probiotics + sinusitis, and sinusitis + bacteria for the last 2 years and did not see any new probiotic (beneficial bacteria) sinusitis research. Very disappointing. And nothing more on L. rhamnosus.
So right now it is unknown which bacteria species in probiotic supplements mixed with water and dabbed/smeared in the nose are giving good results to those writing in.
PS Also ordering 6 of Sunja's medium cucumber kim chi right now. Will try to use each in 2 days. Is it still working for everyone? 20C or 68F is L. sakei's ideal temp in production, and viability decreased "sharply" at 80 & above. In cold weather I'd chance ground shipping but it was almost 90 lately here in Texas so doing 2nd day air. Research re: temperatures in producing L. sakei: 68F (20 C) ideal temp; viability loss at 80 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs002530050003#page-1
Unfortunately it's hard to know if L. sakei is present in kimchi unless one tries it and gets beneficial results. Yes, people are still having success with different kinds of locally available kimchi (including cucumber kimchi) throughout the U.S. Good luck!
Hi!
I was wondering how you use the kimchi to apply it in your nose?
Just dip a q-tip in to the liquid in the jar and then swab the inside of your nostrils?
Thanks!
Please look at the Sinusitis Treatment Summary page for treatment methods.
We spoon a little kimchi juice into a clean little bowl - don't want to introduce new bacteria into the jar.
Will the salt in NeilMed 8 oz spray bottle effect L Sakei? I use this method usually morning and nights. Would adding L Sakei to the bottle along with the salt packet be beneficial? The solution seems to flush out the sinus more than just the nostrils.
I have very thick mucus continually and usually have to use antibiotics in the Spring and Fall. Twice I have been in the hospital for pneumonia.
I (and family members) never used salt solution (the Neil Med packet) at the same time as L. sakei because salt is somewhat antibacterial.
The first year we did use saline solution every day, but at least one hour apart (or more) from when we used L. sakei. We felt that this way the L. sakei had a chance to travel up to the sinuses without being flushed away. But we kept wondering about this precise issue and so stopped using daily saline solution by year 2 (we also didn't need it anymore).
We used Mucinex Maximum Strength 12 hour in the evening when suffering from extra thick phlegm/mucus (only contains Guaifenesin 1200 mg) because it thins the phlegm/mucus.
I wonder if you broke open a Udo's pill and put in salt solution in Neil Med bottle, if it would help. Been thinking about trying this.
Not with salt (salt is antibacterial)- just mix the powder with distilled, boiled, or bottled water. One could also dab/smear this mixture in the nose (the bacteria would travel up the nostrils on their own to the sinuses).(See Sinusitis Treatment Summary page.)
Hello Sima - thanks for your continued work and sharing of information - its really much appreciated. I am in the UK where it is (seemingly) not possible to obtain the Bactoferm FRM-52 or the recommended kimchi brands. I have tried making my own kimchi (delicious) but not successful (for which could be many reasons!). I have just come across this starter culture though -LS 25 Starter Culture for sale. Appears to be a form of L. Sakei - (and just L. sakei) but that has perhaps been specially adapted for sausage making. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3709151/
Any thoughts? Ive ordered so I will report back on how I get on. Thanks again - fascinating site and information!
Thanks.
I looked at the article which pointed out that L. sakei has many strains and some are used as sausage starter cultures. The L. sakei in sausage starter culture Bactoferm F-RM-52 and in vegan kimchi are definitely different strains, but both work. Probably the Korean Lactopy product is another strain. In a July 2, 2014 post I reported:"Currently there are over 230 different strains of L.sakei isolated from meat, seafood, or vegetables from all over the world." Currently it is unknown which work best in the sinuses.
Hopefully the product you try works.
Hi Robin,
I am also from the UK.
Do you know what's you got the last. SakeI?
Finding it difficult to track down.
Richard
L. sakei as fairly fragile - it is killed off by antibiotics, by oxygen within a week of opening a kimchi jar, and even the culture Bactoferm F-RM-52 package says that it dies off within 2 weeks at room temperature
How does it survive at body temperature?
There's a lot we don't know about the sinus microbiome (community of microbes), including L. sakei. We do know L. sakei is anaerobic (lives in the absence of oxygen).
One possibility is biofilms of beneficial bacteria, because recent research found that the majority of healthy people also have biofilms in their sinuses (as do those with chronic sinusitis). But unfortunately the researchers did not test what was in the biofilms of healthy people (see post). Different bacteria than in those with chronic sinusitis? We just don't know...
Can dabbing kimchi into your nostrils cause inflammation?
That is not our experience.
If the kimchi contains L.sakei than any inflammation from sinusitis starts improving.
Hi there. I am in New Zealand and therefore considering either the B-2 product or Kimchi. When struggling with sinus pain and headaches I currently use a saline rinse with a drop of Johnsons baby shampoo which supposedly helps break down the biofilm. I do this with a neti pot. Should I cease this while experimenting with l. sakei?
I would not use both at the same time. The baby shampoo is meant to be anti-bacterial or antibiofilm, while the point of using B-2 or kimchi is to add bacteria to the sinus microbiome.
L.sakei dominates over pathogenic bacteria that are causing sinusitis symptoms, and is probably also anti-biofilm.
Thank you. So far I have tried bought kimchi and have had no great success so I will order the B-2!
Sima,
Do you know of any experiences with mixing a small amount of Lactopy in a Neti pot or sinus irrigation system?
As well as the amount that should be used?
Thanks
Nope - don't know any details. But to be cautious in self experimentation, here are some steps according to level of caution: 1) most cautious -rubbing paste in mouth or swishing in mouth (L. sakei and bottled water), 2) dabbing/smearing a little bit (mixing it with bottled water first) in nostrils, 3) spooning a little bit of that mixture into nostrils, and 4) mixing it in neti pot.
I (and my family) have personally never tried a neti pot or a product in a saline rinse, even though we know others have.
We are also especially cautious with a new product because we don't know at first if the L. sakei is alive in that batch.
Interesting thread here. I’ve eat a lot Kimchi and have treated my sinus cavity with multiple orders of BFM52. Although I noticeably feel generally better overall from eating the Kimchi, neither have specifically improves my chronic sinus infections. I have advanced CFS, with typical infections lasting months at a time, cycling back and forth from bacterial to fungal. For reference, my sinus pathogens are RX antibiotic resistant. So when I find something that works, it’s nothing short of a miracle. Currently, I have found incredible success preventing and even knocking out horrible infections using a concoction of essential oils administered via an aroma therapy device. A couple of things to keep in mind if you want to try this. First, using the aroma therapy device nearby you will unlikely be effective. I use the aroma therapy device like a nebulizer, by keeping nose as close as possibly to the source of mist, thereby getting maximum concentrated strength. A slight discomfort is good, too much or too little is not. Bring sinus closer/farther from source quickly changes concentration. Secondly and more critical, is finding the right combination and quantity of oils that work for you. I started by using 12 essential oils total, based on effectiveness in killing bacterial/fungal pathogens, but YMMV. Also, I discovered preventive measures is far better vs waiting like a sitting duck for the next acute infection. For me, 5 min/day on the aroma therapy generally keep my sinuses clear from acute infections.
Thanks for the insights regarding chronic sinusitis in CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome). In your case, it sounds like more is going on than just the sinus microbiome being out of whack (dysbiosis) which ordinarily occurs in chronic sinusitis (which is why adding microbes such as L. sakei works as a treatment).
Another example with more going on is sinusitis with nasal polyps - there the nasal polyps add a level of inflammation that researchers are just trying to grapple with (see post).
Essential oils are considered anti-microbial (antibacterial, antifungal), and it appears that they are destroying/dealing with pathogenic microbes in your CRS.(See here.)
Interestingly, other people with chronic sinusitis have written to me saying that essential oils did not help them or they only helped for a while.
Tom, you're basically using a portable nebulizer with young living Thieves oil? What EOs. And in the end we do need the right probotic species in out sinus for true healing
Tom you may find this thread useful
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads%2Fpost-hpv-vaccine-cfs-25-cured-by-treating-their-nasopharyngitis-with-zinc-chloride.48647%2F
The researcher, Osamu Hotta, looked at patients that certainly meet CDC CFS criteria and all had chronic nasopharyngitis (inflamation at the back of the nasal passage just before it entres the throat).
They were treated with nasal and throat swabs with 0.5% ZnCl2 solution twice a day. The idea is that it works by ablation, by removing the infected cells.
I do not know if it is really wise to combine both therapies, but with CFS I am so unwell, houseboud, that I do not feel I have any time to play around. Anyway I saw an ENT and he seemed happy with Dr Osamu Hotta's treatment and did not object to the l sakei - or even discuss it after I mentioned it.
I have also found that dental probiotics (the kinds others had issues with iflora, therabreath, prodental) seem to help clear my head.
Hi Sima!
I came across your post a couple of months ago. I bought kimchi but I haven't dared to try it yet because I'm worried there may be another bacterias on it that could be not so good too (and being the nose so close to the brain...). Do you have any thought about that possibility?? Thanks!
Yes, there is an entire community of bacteria in kimchi which varies during fermentation - and many batches have beneficial L. sakei from about day 14 to 2 1/2 months. Microbes are all around us and on and in everything (even millions in a glass of tap water).
Being cautious, I have only used vegan kimchi and a "very messy eater" method. This is self-experimentation so do not do anything you're uncomfortable with.
Hi there.I was wondering if it would be helpful to ask a healthy person to put some q-tips deep into their nostrils and maybe get some l.sakei sample and then transplant this sample into my nostril?I know it sounds bizarre and gross but why not?
I think you're basically suggesting a "snot transplant" of the entire sinus microbial community. No studies have done that yet. It would be self-experimentation at this point.
Hi. Sima Have you found any great sources of L. Rhamnousus to use up nasal? It's apparently great for fungal nasal sinus Infection. Fungal aspergillosis won't go away easy.
Also, do you think the will be a nasal probotic next year coming that will have all living species wil need. It should be amazing
Nope - don't know best source or strain of L. rhamnosus to use. Currently it's all self-experimentation. But look for one needing refrigeration and recently produced (better odds of the bacteria being alive).
Don't know when nasal probiotic sprays will be ready - the clinical trials take a long time.
But...I suspect that the nasal sprays won't have all the microbes needed for a healthy microbial community - just some that can deal with the current sinusitis infection. Probiotic research shows they tend NOT to stick around (they tend not to colonize) - whether in the sinuses or gut or elsewhere. This is why fecal microbial transplants work - an entire microbial community is transplanted, but ingesting groups of microbes meant for the gut haven't had success.
Yeah. I've read Of a DYI fecal transplant their sinus improved after. It's all connected to some degree, I wonder how is the average treatment time for Kim chi water snort from people? I've done the past 3 days Twice a day.
It's been really drying I didn't have any mucus too begin with just heated inflammed . I don't recommend people doing firehouse spicy ginger. Ha. It did help infection but seems to inflam as well. I wanna try sunja mild cucumber that shouldn't cause as much pain n drying.
Yikes - I just meant that an entire microbial community transplant is probably the best chance of microbes sticking around (perhaps like a snot transplant?).
Every person treats with a L. sakei product for a different length of time. If you're unsure, why not take a break and see what happens? Re-treat if needed.
Hi, I have just done 4 days of Kimchi dabbed up the nose and today I have a remarkable change! I had a friend who makes veg. Kimchi and I just have kept the Kimchi on the counter and dab 2 times a day. I will continue this 2 times a day for how long? I am so thankful for this treatment I got pneumonia 3 years ago and took a very strong antibiotic which I would tell anyone not to take it. It took me a year to get my guts back in order. I am not a sickly person at all and that was the first time I had taken antibiotic in I can't remember when I had taken them years ago. Another question yesterday I felt a little more mucus so I dabbed it in the middle of the day and it shut it down. Will this be okay doing an extra dabbing when needed? Thank you for this wonderful treatment! Keep up the good work!
Good to hear that the kimchi is working for you!
I would treat with kimchi once or twice a day until feeling "normal", and then cut back and stop until needed again. If the kimchi stops working all of a sudden, it could be because the L. sakei in the kimchi has died off. We found that in commercial brands of kimchi, the L. sakei died off about 6 days after opening the jar - but I don't know about homemade kimchi. It's all self-experimentation.
Please see Sinusitis Treatment Summary page for more information.
I've been suffering from chronic sinusitis for about ten years. A few times it's also infected the middle ear or the bronchi also, but thankfully never turned into pneumonia. I tried all of the mainstream techniques, including at least five different oral antibiotics, sinoplasty & septoplasty, allergy treatments (oral, nasal sprays, and desensitization shots), prednisone, you name it. I've also tried a variety of saline nasal rinsers (netipot, squeeze bottles, pulsating washers) and all sorts of additives (Alkalol, grapefruit seed extract, baby shampoo, topical iodine solution, and more!) Nothing brought lasting relief.
I finally ran across the idea of nasal probiotics a couple of years ago. I had some temporary relief using ERC Probiotics (http://www.ercprobioticenzymes.com/probioticbacteria.html) with one capsule opened and dissolved in about 2oz of distilled water in a reused saline spray bottle (e.g. Ocean.) Shake it up and leave to dissolve 15 minutes, then infuse into both nostrils every few minutes for about 1/2 hour right before bed. Then gargle with the rest, because you can't save it overnight once dissolved.
That worked pretty well, but it had rough side effects - yellow discharge from the nose and headaches, almost like a mild sinus infection - but then it would clear up and I'd be in good shape for a month or so. Still, it was hard enough on me that I was convinced to keep looking.
After that experiment, I found this site and tried the kimchi strategy. We have a local Korean grocery store that makes and packs their own fresh kimchi, both cucumber and cabbage varieties. It's not vegan (there's a bit of shrimp) but it works like a charm. I swab a bit of the juice in both nostrils morning and evening, and I usually feel relief within 12 hours and can stop the treatment within 3-5 days. I lasted nearly three months without having to do it again, after the first time, and the side effects were very mild. I'm hoping that over time, like the site owners, I'll be able to reduce the frequency with which I'll need this, but it's already by far the best answer I've yet found.
Did anybody try the kimchi of the Hosan brand?
I can't buy it in my neighborhood (West Flanders, Belgium), I could buy Hosan Kimchi online.
How many cans do you normally need to start this treatment? (Let's say for the first 2 weeks) I have no idea at all about the normal content of prepared kimchi (liquid vs non-liquid). Thanks for all the information!
I have not had any feedback about Hosan brand kimchi. But...since it is canned with a long shelf life, then it probably is pasteurized - a heat treatment that kills all bacteria, including beneficial Lactobacillus sakei. And rather than garlic (which may be involved with L. sakei), there is "flavor enhancer E621".
Typically one small jar of "live" fermented kimchi lasts one week, and only a little (a few spoonfuls) of the kimchi juice is used for sinusitis treatment during that week.
i tried to buy bactuferm from sausagemaker ny buffalo online ,, i have address in the us by ship and shop service which i used to buy things from my us by aramex ,, i made an account in the site thus buy one bactuferm plus ups fee ,, which all costs 21$ ,, msg appeared told me the payment is declined ,, thus another sms to my phone from the bank which told me your card charged for 21$ and no innvoice or anything else appered in my company ,, i tried to msg them ,, no any thing ,, thus they are untrusted and group of thieves
imp alert
donnot buy anything from sausagemake.com because they are thieves ,, buy from the shop directly not the site
No clue why that happened. Perhaps because they only ship it within North America? They are usually a very reliable company.
I read much of this thread, but far from all of it. I'm wondering how I can affordably and reliably get my sinus contents cultured, so I know what I'm dealing with all these years. I'm in the Denver area in the U.S.
Reading about bad-news staph in the sinuses(not normal skin staph), more prevalent with people around dogs really freaked me out, as dogs have been my livelihood for many years. Frankly too, in the face of this horror show going on politically right now, I am genuinely concerned that if the Affordable Care Act is dismantled and I turn up with a medical record with this nearly untreatable staph that I will become uninsurable. Can I get this tested anonymously? Thank you.
Sorry, but I don't have any names for you.
It seems that chronic sinusitis sufferers have microbial communities out of whack - it's not just one strain of bacteria that is bothering them (Bacterial Communities Vary Between the Sinuses In People With Chronic Sinusitis)
Much current research is just looking at the differences in microbial communities between those with and without sinusitis - there is much they still don't know. It turns out some people have microbes in the nasal passages that are protective against the most pathogenic bacteria such as MRSA (see post). A future probiotic to be used as treatment?
Here is a link to a company that does biome testing to include testing of the nose: https://ubiome.com/explorer
have a new valubale source of l.sakei in such days
read that ,,
"Yan-jiangis a traditional fermented ginger widely used in Taiwan. It is prepared by two methods, such as with addition of plums and without addition of plums. The ginger (Zingiber officinale Roscoe) was washed, shredded, mixed with salt (NaCl), and layered in a bucket for 2–6 h. After the exuded water is removed, the ginger is mixed with sugar, and pickled plums are added only in method P. Salt and sugar are added to a final concentration of approximately 30–60 g kg−1. Fermentation usually continues for 3–5 days at low temperature (6–10°C), but some producers maintain a fermentation time of 1 week or even longer. Initial fermentation was carried out by Lactobacillus sakei and Lactococcus lactis subsp. Lactis and this species are replaced by Weissella cibaria and L. plantarum at the final stages of fermentation"
source
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/btri/2014/250424/
So far I have not found any evidence for swallowed probiotics (whether in food or capsule) making it to the sinuses. But swishing dissolved probiotics in the mouth may help some people.
Mayo Clinic Research determined that Fungus Causes Chronic Sinusitis. Fungus-killing friendly bacteria are normally present in your sinuses, but are killed by the use of antibiotics, and/or other means, typically used to treat Sinusitis.
To naturally eliminate this fungus you must reintroduce those friendly bacteria directly back into your sinuses. Swallowing friendly bacteria will "not" reach the sinuses.
You are correct about the need to introduce beneficial bacteria into the sinuses.
However, the Mayo Clinic research proposing that most sinusitis cases were caused by fungi was published in the late 1990s. Since then researchers started using genetic sequencing to look at the microbial communities of the sinuses (sinus microbiome), and that theory is no longer accepted.
It is now thought that most cases of sinusitis are caused by bacteria and viruses, and only a subgroup are caused by fungi.
Some pathogenic bacteria involved in sinusitis are: Streptococcus pneumoniae, Haemophilus influenzae, and Staphylococcus aureus (these bacteria can dominate over other bacteria during sinusitis). Antibiotic use, viral infections, etc. can cause microbial inbalances (dysbiosis) in the sinuses.
Can someone recommend a step by step tasty recipe for making kimchi?
- using:
http://netropolitan.co.nz/shop/lactobacillus-sakei-bactoferm-b-2/
(or please suggest alternative sources that can be delivered to the UK)
I also have air lock glass jars that can be used to make the kimchi with.
Thanks!
All I can say is Wow! I've battled toxic mold exposure for the past 2 years, thought I was dying, brain fog, dizziness, one side of my face warm, so many Dr appointments. CT of sinus shows nothing, multiple rounds of antibiotics actually made me feel worse. But after 3 days of use, I can think clearly for the first time in forever. Not sure how long I'll have to keep applying but this is nothing short of amazing. Thank you so much for this site!
Do you treat only when you have a sinus infection? If you are currently not sick, will using the Bactoferm F-RM-52 be beneficial?
We, and others, treat only as needed. There is no added benefit to keep using it. The sinuses normally have many bacteria species - not just enormous amounts of L. sakei.
What do you suggest to avoid when treating. For example, supplements and OTC drugs...as well as prescriptions?
Also, which of the options do you suggest work the most and fastest? For example, I see where you said look at the exp date on the kimchee. Of it is expired, do you throw it away? Why do you buy six bottles at a time? Of you don't see a difference in one bottle working two days, do you try another?
Also, do you suggest not going to an ENT or getting any procedures/allergy shots? If anyone got allergy shots, will that effect the results?
I have had sinus issues for a long time, but two years ago, they got so bad. I was getting hard, bloody mucus caught in my throat. Its happened 3-4 times. I am going to the ENT for the first time today. I don't know what to expect, but I'm not positive...just desperate.
Sorry for all the questions.
We only avoid medications that kill bacteria and other microbes. We take allergy meds, pain killers (aspirin, etc), Mucinex 12 hour (for phlegm/mucus thinning), etc as needed.
Probiotics, including L. sakei, do not have any effect on allergies (unfortunately).
We have not had the need to go to an ENT for 4 years because we feel fine. L. sakei took care of all sinusitis symptoms.
Each jar of kimchi is its own fermentation factory - thus the variability. We keep extras around in case we get ill or need to treat again.
It's all self-experimentation.
That is a multi-strain probiotic - see Multistrain Probiotic Treatment Method on the Sinusitis Treatment Summary page for how people report using such a probiotic.
By the way, that probiotic you mention does not contain Lactobacillus sakei. Perhaps it'll work for you, perhaps not. This is all self-experimentation.
Ok. I just want to make sure I totally understand the process. The product has an expiration date. You believe that the item was made six? Months prior to the expiration date. Kimchee has L. sakei for only two to three months. So, if I bought a product dated 6/30/2017, you would suggest it be consumed by 4/30/2017 because that is the time frame you've realized the L. sakei to be active?
If this is better by email, please let me know. I just want to do this right.
These are very general guidelines. We have found that the closer the kimchi is to the date it was made - say from day 14 to the end of the month, the more L. sakei it has. So we buy new kimchi at the store just to have it around in case. But one can eat the kimchi for months and months.
So, the best days to use the kimchee is 14-30 days from when it was made? And the expiration date represents six months from prep date?
Every kimchi brand is different-only the kimchi producer can tell you when it was made.
Thanks for all of your information. I've been really stressed about my sinuse infection and I went to an ENT yesterday. He said that I had silent reflux and acute sinusitis. I had already been to my PCP last week and had been on antibiotics for six days. He showed me the video of my throat. It was nasty. So now I have Reflux to deal with also. Did you or your family members have any reflux issues along with sinus issues?
Hi Everyone - any thoughts on these two products. Desperate to try this but a bit scared of the Fermented cabbage or Sausage product 🙂
http://www.liviaglobal.com/store/index.php/probiotic-topical-skin-ringworm-mrsa-staph-rash-infection-yeast-organic.html Does say Nasal/Sinus infection but also says external use.
Or
https://www.p2probioticpower.com/why-probiotics/ Looks like the key item is there as well and does state you can inhale it?
I tried to post this earlier but anyone got any feedback on two US Spray probiotics?
P2 http://www.p2probioticpower.com/p2-i-help-you-breathe-allergy-asthma-sinus-relief-spray-14-oz-multi-room-size/ I did think it was in this but was mistaken. Their does seem to be a growing amount of Probiotic cleaners and topical sprays but this is the only one I could find that specifically encouraged inhalation! If it wasn't $50 to post to the UK I would give it a try but $75 for one can seems a bit too far for an experiment.
Anyway having only speed read page - I went back and read some more and found someone in the UK had a success with a UK Brand (made not 10 miles from me) and I have ordered the Standard one and Vegan one. The standard one had fish in it, so not sure about that going my nose!?
I will come back with how I get on, and if I can get the canned P2 one reduced postage I will give that a go too.
Thanks for a great page BTW - Been suffering with Sinus issues for 6 years any relief will be welcome!
Thanks for the link. Interesting idea, but at this point don't know if they have any benefit or it's all marketing.
The P2 probiotic power product you mention is meant to be sprayed on upholstered furnishings. The spray container says it contains a "proprietary blend of probiotics" and "proprietary organic scents", but does not give details, and using the "organic" term without being approved by an organic governing body means nothing. Scents or fragrances can contain many chemicals and be incredibly irritating. Elsewhere on the site they mention bacterial strains they may use in their products - they are the same ones found in many multi-strain probiotic supplements, but they don't include Lactobacillus sakei and Lactobacillus rhamnosus.
They discuss biofilms as always negative, but biofilms can also be beneficial. For example, one study found that the majority of healthy people also have biofilms in their sinuses, another that L. reuterii can form beneficial biofilms in the gut.
When buying kimchi, just make sure it is "alive" and not pasteurized (pasteurization kills off all microbes).
It sounds like your sinusitis symptoms were related to inflammation.
A subgroup of sinusitis sufferers can be treated just by lowering inflammation - which is why frequently they can be treated successfully with just a corticosteroid nasal spray (which lowers inflammation). And you did on your own.
I actually saw the last comment on this post yesterday https://chriskresser.com/chronic-sinus-problems-another-role-for-probiotics/ from someone who tried it with success but I am not 100% sure it wasn't positive marketing being used!! All the reviews on the spray are sinus related.
If you read the detail on the product in the link I gave it doesn't mention scents and does say safe to Spray in ears and nose.
They have not got back to me with a better deal on postage, I can get 14 bottles of Alkalol from the USA via DHL for $35 inc UK tax and duties - one can sent for $50 seems way too much.
Anyway my local Kimichi is on its way, I assume the one with the Fish Sauce is not one I should try? Stick to the Vegan one
The link you gave says "proprietary scents" on the product label (look at the label photo).
My personal preference is vegan kimchi - I've never tried a fish sauce one.
Oh hadn't spotted that - even less interested.
I see Hansen have applied for a Sausage product that is just L.Sakei B2 Safepro http://wpage.unina.it/giamauri/Materiale_vario/Starter%20commerciali/Chr.%20Hansen/Carne/Bioprotective%20Cultures/B2%20SafePro.pdf
Also a European manufacturer of L.Sakei AB Sakei 65 for use in Dermatitis, although not clear if it is for sale, under trial or just something they would produce under own label. http://www.ab-biotics.com/products/probiotics/dermatology-immunology/ab-sakei-65.html
My Mr Kimchi arrived today, just had a fair bit of dental work yesterday so will leave it until next week to try.
Sorry to keep posting but I do find this subject so fascinating although frustrating that it doesn't appear to have been picked and run with by the Pharmaceutical industry. I would assume any product that is sprayed in the nose has go through a lot testing before it can be sold as a natural remedy, hence why no smaller nasal product companies have tried it.
Thanks for the information.
I know that two groups of researchers (in US and Europe) are doing clinical trails for nasal sprays with L.sakei and other probiotics in it.
The B-2 has been available for years in some countries, but not the USA.
Did Mr Kimchi work?
I live in the UK and have asked them via Amazon UK if they have L Sakei but I'm not sure they do by their response.
If its worked for you then I'll consider buying some.
Thanks
Ally: L. sakei is naturally occurring in kimchi, especially from garlic (see post). It is NOT added at any point. So kimchi manufacturers would not know - would need to do lab tests at precisely the right time in fermentation.
I live in Norway. Where can I find this?
Is this okay? Sick with sinus infection constantly for 7 years.
http://no.iherb.com/pr/Dragon-Herbs-Kim-Qi-ProBio-2-1-oz-60-g/58277
The Dragon Herb looks interesting, but I have not heard anything about it. Please let me know what you think if you try it.
A number of the products I mention in the post are available in Europe - perhaps do a Google search to see what can be bought in Norway. And perhaps someone is selling live fermented kimchi in Norway.
Let us know if it works,
Thanks
Hi: I have been using Kimchi for about a month now, and have seen really good improvement with my sinuses. I have been using kimchi once or twice a day. I am wondering at what point should I reduce the usage? Should I now go to as needed or do should I continue with the daily doses now that my sinuses seem clear. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
I personally would cut back when the sinuses feel good, and then only use as needed.
Something fabulously disgusting happened to me this morning, using the kimchi!
For two years I have had a constant runny nose and a bad smell in my nose. In desperation I finally went to an ENT specialist who took a culture which showed Staph and Fungus. She put me on oral steriods and antibiotics, which made me feel miserable and did nothing. Next they wanted to do a cat scan and surgery. In desperation, I tried the kimchi idea posted here. I have been doing it for 2 weeks with no result. Then this morning the fabulously disgusting thing happened! I had used kimchi last night. This morning I tried using a saline spray. When I sprayed, I felt a horrible glob shoot like a rocket through my sinuses into my throat. I then pulled an inch round nasty glob of grey/green fungus from my mouth. It smelled like a dead body. Other than feeling like I need to gargle with bleach :), I am thrilled. My theory is that the kimchi loosened the fungal ball but it was too big to come out my nose, so it needed the spray to wash it out the other way. I am going to keep up the treatment for awhile and make sure I got it all. I am thrilled to think I avoided surgery with this!!
Amazing story! A 2005 study found five Lactobacillus species in kimchi that are anti-fungal: Lactobacillus cruvatus, L. lactis, L. casei, L. pentosus, and L. sakei. More recent studies of kimchi found even more antifungal species (such as L. plantarum).
Hi, I am not quite sure where to add this but you mention various brands of kimchi.
I am in Australia and the one I have been finding useful is kehoe's kitchen white kimchi http://kehoeskitchen.com/white-kimchi/ .
My jar has a used by date for mid January 2018, so I am guessing it was 7 weeks old when I started using it.
Hey Richard
How much has the white kimchi helped you? Was your nasal passages much more clear after you used it?
Thanks!
I have found it more effective than the b2.
I have been doing a combined treatment of fluconazole (antifungal), epipharyngeal swabbing with .5% zinc chloride solution (to remove infected cells and promote cell growth) and probiotics.
I am a little different to people above in that a I have CFS and chronic migraine (and it seems that the symptoms of chronic sinusitus were missed because the lighheadedness, brain fog, pain and other symptoms were explained by the other two diagnoses).
I started looking at my sinuses after got improvements in my mental clarity and reduced lightheadedness when taking dental probiotics (prodental, therabreath, iflora and life extension foundation). And read an article on the resolution of CFS in some japanese patients following treatment for chronic nasopharyngytis. https://sci-hub.ac/10.1007/s12026-016-8859-x
So I started on nasal swabbing, then swabing plus lactopy; then swabbing plus b2, then swabbing plus b2 plus fluconazole, then swabbing plus kimchi juice plus fluconazole. Part of Dr Osamu Hotta's approach was to swab the back of the throat so I have also been doing that throughout, and I have also been taking dental probiotics and gargling from time to time.
The lactopy seemed to make a big change in mental clarity at first and to make headaches and sinus pressure worse at first (I asumed a war was going on) I used it sniffed from a spoon and in a nasal rinse. And it seemed to work best at very large doses.
I switched to B2 when I ran out because it comes with an ice brick in a styrofoam package, so it seemed a better bet. And it was in as or perhaps slightly more effective. but my nasal swabs were still coming back bloody, mostly severe on osamu hotta's scale.
Adding fluconazole seemed to take me to mostly moderate on osamu hotta's scale(ocassionally severe and clear once or twice. Then the kimchi juice has made it mild or clear. I have also gone from using nasal rinses with half a lactopy scoup of b2 twice a day to using a simple saline rinse every second day - or therabouts I just do it when I feel the need.
So the picture is complicated but this brand of kimchi seems effective. When I last went to the shop they only had the traditional (medium heat) kimchi, so it is what I started using yesterday and I do not recommend - even though I will have to use it - because the chilli is a bit too much.
It is interesting that you report improvement with the dental probiotics Prodental and Therabreath. Both contain BLIS K12 (Streptococcus salivarius)- which 4 people (including myself) found to cause sinusitis symptoms from the first day it was taken and during the next few weeks.
Kimchi is an interesting and complex product with an assortment of microbes.
Sima,
I started after reading this post http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/oral-probiotics-to-clear-your-head.42606/#post-689976
On phoenixrising there is also a recent thread about someone getting a major improvement with strepsils which are oral antiseptic lozenges.
I also got an improvement from using vicks under my nose, but have stopped using it as it is antimicrobial and could for all I know harm the l sakei. (Though of course l. sakei is useful because it is also antimicrobial.)
My experience was that I did get a lot of phlegm, tonnes of it, and quite a lot of pain/inflamation in my throat and lungs. But I also got a lot an improvement in other (CFS) symptoms, and the symptoms of pain/inflammation and increased phlegm passed or became less severe.
My sense at the time was that my sinuses were a resevoir of bad microbes that was fighting the new bacteria. I have no idea if this was so. But I have had over a decade of not being able to produce stomach acid or sufficient bile, and consequently I have had no real barrier to stop bacteria from entering my gut.
I did think that some of the improvement could have been what the dental probiotics were doing in the gut, but a yoghurt made with them did nothing for me, so I think it was their impact on the microbiome of the throat, mouth and sinuses.
I need a time machine to go back and collect samples, a laboratory to run the tests and someone who really understands all this stuff to do the thinking for me.
Hey Richard
Thanks for all the information :). I'm from Sydney, Australia. Recently I have tried using the Peace, Love Vegetables Kimchi brand. It didn't really help much. Later I found out that they only ferment the kimchi for a few days before they refrigerate it. That doesn't seem to be the case with the Kehoes kimchi brand though as they said they ferment for up to 12 weeks . I'll give them a go and see how it works out
I'm currently trying out B-2 , on my third day now. A lot of dry nose and sinuses,but no nasal passage clearing yet although my ear aches have gone away.
It is amazing that same story is almost across the world with sinus issues. I am from Russia and there is an informal community of similar kind for those, who suffer chronic sinus infections for multiple years. They also share all possible things often pretty extravagant (though need to say, that examples i read here are way more creative). Any way, one of the sufferers also came to a conclusion about probiotics and even wrote a book, which he sells for a moderate cost and now there is a whole site (russian only): http://cc-t1.ru/kniga_o_prichinah_lor_zabolevanij_i_prostud.html
difference is that he promotes Propionibacterium Bacteria (which is not calssical probiotic, but generally very similar thing) and a specifc product, which does look some sort of MLM. + it takes efforts to prepare it (almost alchemy) and resembles some sort of yogort in the end. However, few report that it works for them and some claim that they cured infection completely. Based on my experience it didn't work though.
Simply amazing how worldwide people suffer preety similar shit, but looks like everywhere people are looking into probiotics. Just wanted to share with you. Keep up!
A shout out to Richard, I too have the same diagnosis and participate on both Phoenix Rising and Health Rising. The post you referenced, I had saved.
Anyway I've got several small nasal sprayers that allow me to mix and spray, Has anyone diluted the kimchi and nasaly sprayed the mix?
I wouldn't do that simply because I think it would be irritating due to the spices and garlic in the kimchi. If the kimchi contains L. sakei, then dabbing/smearing the juice works just fine (the bacteria travel up to the sinuses on their own). One never knows if a new jar contains L. sakei or not - and this way it's also being cautious.
Sima,
when you procure kimchi do you mail order or buy from a store? If you order direct from Sunja's do you order multiple jars?? Do they ship new batches each time? Do they ship in a manner that maintains the kimchi's temperature?
It seems crucial to get kimchi which was has been made in last month or two. Most kimchi in the store has been sitting there a while. I got some Sunja's mild white yesterday dated to 'expire' 12/15/17, so I don't think its new enought to contain much L. sakei, may some other beneficial lacto bio, who knows. I'm on the second day of dabbing/smearing. Debating ordering some direct from Sunja in the hope they send fresher kimchi.
Any feedback would be great,
Thanks,
Dan
I prefer to buy from a local store (cheaper, easier), but I've also ordered directly from the maker. Kimchi is initially kept at room temperature to get the fermentation process going, but after that is refrigerated. I usually buy several jars to always have extra "just in case" they're needed.
If you order - specify that you get the most recent batch. Unfortunately it's all self-experimentation to see if a jar has L. sakei in it. Perhaps some other kimchi brand may also work for you.
What about milk kefir? Could I put kefir up my nose and have similar effects? is it dangerous? Thanks! Awesome site
I have not seen any reports of kefir containing Lactobacillus sakei- so I wouldn't expect it to treat sinusitis. On the other hand, there are other probiotic species of bacteria in it (including Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Streptococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, Lactobacillus helveticus, Lactobacillus kefiranofaciens, Lactococcus lactis, and Leuconostoc species, according to Wikipedia) - perhaps it may be of benefit to someone, but that is unknown right now. Again, self-experimentation may answer that question.
On oct 31 2016, I developed a cold that became a sinus infection and never went away. After 4 courses of antibiotics, 2 courses of oral steroids and sinus surgery in April, I was sicker than ever. Yesterday I applied kimchi and I could notice less swelling in the symptomatic turbinate. Let's see how it goes. You took theory and put it to practice. You're unbelievable. Words can't thank you enough.
Anyone had any luck with Mother in Law kimchi?
https://milkimchi.com/collections/kimchi/products/white-napa-cabbage-kimchi?variant=18145550337
I've used fresh Sunji's Mild White and it seemed to keep from taking antibiotics again(for the 3rd time in March of this year), but its hard to find fresh batches reliably. Seem to have been snagged another another acute infection after flying in July.
Thanks
I first read your information about a year ago, and after several attempts at getting fresh kimchi (but not too fresh) I also tried a probiotic brand called Elixa. While intended for intestinal support, my sinus cavities are the traitors of my body. When I start to feel pressure in my sinuses, I use one capsule, opened and mixed with water then swabbed in my nose. It is not as instantly effective as the kimchi was when I found a fresh batch but it seems to break down whatever is accumulating in my sinuses.
Thank you for all your work and gathering information here. It is really a deviation from the anti-biotic model of care.
Where do I buy this and please state the exact name brand. I am a sufferer!
Thank you very much for that site. I used the van hees product you mentioned once, and I think it works for me. I am in europe. I am still experimenting with it, two month ago it stopped the yellow mucus and I got healthy after about 5 days.
Now, as my whole family is fighting a cold, i am using a new package and didn't get the cold yet. Usually i am the first to get it if my son is sick. Do you think it also helps prevent from a normal virus?
Anyway, many thanks for your great and informative site. You really are doing something very helpful and you seem to be perfectly good informed.
What we found in my family of 4 people is that once the chronic sinusitis was gone, than we became much more resistant to viruses - we were healthier overall. Your results match ours.
Do you think that l. sakei from the B-2 culture can erdaicate the streptococcus installed in the tonsils which are travelling to sinuses and back? Medics recomended to cut my tonsils smaller. I also have chronic sinusitis because of the strep installed here. I found a local dealer in Romania for the B-2 starter culture.
Possibly, because L. sakei is anti-bacterial.
When trying out the B-2, I would also swish it around in the mouth since your tonsils are also involved.
For your bacteria’s, on the wrong places in your body, you can get bacteriophages therapy in Tbilisi Georgia. They have standard phages treatment and can make a costum phage that will “eat” your problem bacteria’s.
Ok. Today i'll have the B-2. So excited 🙂
Has anyone in the US tried Nasobiotex? It is a Lactobacillus Sakei powder sold as a probiotic. They ship in an insulated package with two ice packs - but only to US addresses.
I am attempting to order Nasobiotex directly from their website, not from amazon. So far, their customer service is excellent, they have emailed me back twice to try and arrange shipping to Canada! I hope they can FedEx or UPS some soon. This product seems really promising.
I would appreciate it if you would provide an update or two - on the shipping, and on its effectiveness. I too, live in Canada. In November I plan to visit a friend in North Dakota - so I want to have some shipped to him and bring it across the border myself. Are they talking about overnight delivery to Canada?
Initial reports (of people that have tried various L. sakei products) are that this product is very mild (weak). Also, one person reported that the L. sakei had died off by the fourth time they used it (in one week's time).
Thank you for the update on Nasobiotex. It makes me want to try Bactoferm F-RM-52 instead. Is it possible to order it with two-day shipping to Canada?
I suggest looking up sausage-making suppliers in Canada(google it) to find one that carries Bactoferm F-RM-52 or B-2 (both are starter cultures). Also, perhaps refrigerated live kimchis are locally available? Only through self-experimentation can one figure out what works, which varies from person to person.
Has anyone tried Mondostart 2M? It is a sausage starter that contains Lactobacillus sakei, Staphylococcus carnosus, Staphylococcus xylosus and Dextrose. A moderator of a sausage-making forum (wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?p=34048) says it has the same types of bacteria as Bactoferm F-RM-52. It is available in Canada.
Have not heard anything about it, and not much is written about the third bacteria in it - S. xylosus. Bactoferm F-RM-52 only has L. sakei and S.carnosus. S. xylosus is generally considered benign - found on the skin of animals and humans, but (very) occasionally problematic.
I ordered Bactoferm from Testek in Quebec. They would only do parcel post - not airmail or two-day shipping. I received it seven days after shipping.
Anyone looking for L. Sakei, I just found this online, sold to drink or add to whatever you need apothexhealth.com. They are making a powder of soley L Sakei, that will only be shipped Mon-Wed so it will not overheat and maintain it's integrity.
Ordered it and I'll try to remember to return here, in order to follow up how it worked for me.
How did it go with the Apothex L Sakei product?
Initial reports (of people that have tried various L. sakei products) are that this product is very mild (weak). Also, one person reported that the L. sakei had died off by the fourth time they used it (in one week's time).
Sima, thanks for coming up with this. I am using Ozuke kimchi and it works. I use and eye dropper or a q-tip.
"Some researchers are focusing on Lactobacillus sakei, L. rhamnosus, L. plantarum, L. casei, and L. Johnsonii in the treatment of sinusitis and sinus health"
I found a cultured drink that has the following:
Bacillus Coagulans
L. Rhamnosus
L. Plantarum
L. Paracasei
Thinking I may use this as well, in a "messy eater" kind of way. Any thoughts?
Of course one can try it - it would be self-experimentation.
Another possibility (again self-experimentation) is opening a multi-strain probiotic, putting the powder on the tongue, swishing it in the mouth, and then swallowing (and not drinking or eating anything else for a little while).
Has anyone experienced Kimchi to bring back sense of smell due to 4 months of sinusitis? I've completely lost my sense of smell after this long and latest spell of sinusitis. My air passages are clear (breathing not problem) but deep sinus are still phlemmed with clear mucus. Trying to make it go away and then focus on lost smell.
Chris,
Or anyone on this blog. I have a question about a certain company that sells their product called multi-strain probiotic by InnovixLabs, they sell it in a capsule form.
I was wondering if you can take the powder out and mix it with a little bit of water and swish it around in your mouth at night time just before laying down at night. I am hoping you can do it that way. Has anyone ever done this with this product that had the sakei in it. My husband has sinusitis and he has numerous sinus surgeries, and this last sinus surgery, was extremely painful, they had to grind down bone in his nose in order for him to breathe correctly. He had calcium buildup on one side. He has had countless sinus infections. He has had polyps removed from his sinuses. He has been on all kinds of sprays and and allergy pills,
Sinus rinses, all of that helps for a while and then he gets a sinus infection, and just a few weeks ago,he was on antibiotics for bronchitis. My husband will not put a paste or anything up in his nose with out his ENT doctors advice. Thanks.
Of course one can just swish probiotic powder mixed with water (non-chlorinated) in the mouth or just put the powder right on the tongue. Some people have experienced positive results, some say no effect. It's all self-experimentation. All probiotics can be tried that way.
See the post above for some issues raised about the multi-strain Innovix Labs probiotic.
I remember kimchee from one of the old M*A*S*H episodes. I have been putting the powder from Ultimate Flora 90 billion cultures up my nose with a q tip and saline soln. After reading your replies I shall switch to bottled water or distilled water. Question. Is L. casei in sake and how could that be used?
Thanks for all of your insight.
My understanding is that Lactobacillus sakei is used to start fermentation in making sake, but don't know if L. casei is also involved.
+1 for sauerkraut. I read your website a few months back but kept on using antibiotics rather than giving kimchi a go. This time around I threw caution to the wind (out of desperation) and tried the sauerkraut I happened to have in the fridge. It worked! I came back to your site to reread and saw that sauerkraut doesn't usually work ... except maybe if it has garlic. Woo hoo! I got lucky because the sauerkraut I have has garlic in it: Gutsy Smoked Garlic Kraut (Australia). Bye bye pills 🙂
Thank you very much for your very informative web and a number of great ideas. Now got the suggestion from my ORL specialist to try Rinogermina - with Streptococcus salivarius nasal spray (there is a similar product on the market called Bactoral - for "oral" use only). Now I am only in the first week - so we will see. But I would like to ask you if you have any explanation - why you had to switch from one to another product ( see ....." We still use Sunja's Kimchi (the first year we used Sunja's medium spicy cabbage, but when that stopped working we switched to the medium spicy cucumber kimchi, and now also the mild white kimchi)."
Thank you very much for your kind advice!!!
Katy
It'll be interesting to see if the S. salivarius helps - that is the bacteria that has brought on sinusitis symptoms in some people just by taking it orally (by mouth).
As I said in the above post, we think that a product suddenly not working may be due to (overuse of that product) - it's too much of the microbes in that product. So we switch to something else for a while. This is why we always, always - only use a product when needed.
For readers in Australia, I have also found the Kimchi in the chilled section at my local Coles to be effective. Not sure if it's in all Coles supermarkets. The company that makes it is called Keep It Cleaner (n.b. haven't tried the spicy variety).
Incidentally, I know you don't advocate this and it probably isn't a good idea ... but I resorted to dabbing the kimchi in my ears and gargling the juice! Along with sinusitis I also get recurring bacterial laryngitis and this seems to have helped (the nose dabs only helped the sinus prob). I figure ear/nose/throat are all connected... Perhaps inadvisable but, what the hell, it seems to work.
Interesting that kimchi works for earaches. Each ear has a microbiome which is out of whack in those with earaches. So perhaps the addition of probiotics helps.
Thanks to everyone reporting on what works in treating sinusitis. It's great to hear the success stories!
I used Kimchi as directed on the website and found that the area under my eyes swelled tremendously overnight so that I woke in the morning with huge bags under my eyes. Have you spoken with anyone who had this reaction. When I stopped the treatment, the bags went back to semi-normal. I made sure I was drinking enough fluids.
No, I have never heard of that. Could it have been an allergic reaction (e.g. allergic shiners)to an ingredient in the kimchi? Kimchi is the national food of South Korea, children start eating it daily as toddlers (when they are "messy eaters"), and it is considered a beneficial food in many ways.
Of course, if there is a negative reaction to it, then definitively avoid it.
I'm fine when eating it. Just had the problem when I put it in the nostrils as described on the website. Maybe there is something in it that irritated my sinuses. Thanks for your reply.
You are not alone, I got big pimples on my nose and forehead, after I applied Kimchi in my nose. Had to take antibiotics to get rid of them.
Very surprising. It sounds like there was no Lactobacillus sakei in the kimchi. L. sakei is anti-pathogenic (kills off pathogenic bacteria), which is why it is used as a starter culture.
I put undiluted olive leaf extract in a nasal spray bottle and I found it to be a very effective decongestant. Several applications over a few hours will remove the pressure and headache of a sinusitis attack.
Has anyone tried Subtilis Bacillis?
It apparently can secrete amylase, which can help break up biofilms that seem to be part of the reason chronic sinusitis is so hard to treat with antibiotics.
No one contacting me has mentioned Subtilis bacillis in all these years. But Lactobacillus sakei (in any product), as well as kimchi (with its multitudes of microbes, including L. sakei), apparently "treats" or breaks up pathogenic biofilms in some manner.
Interestingly, studies show most people have biofilms in their sinuses - whether they are healthy or have sinusitis (here, and here ). Perhaps, as some researchers write, we need to focus on how to maintain "equilibrium" among the microbes in our sinuses.
Is acute sinusitis curable with L Sakei? Or it is viral?
I've had chronic sinusitis last year and cured it with B-2, but now after one week of flu i feel my sinus inflamed.
The flu (virus) can inflame the sinuses and this can lead to acute sinusitis (bacterial). And yes, acute sinusitis can be treated with L. sakei.
How did you use B2 and what kind? I’m curious and wanting to try anything for chronic sinusitis...... thx
B2 is a frozen starter culture available in some European countries and New Zealand. See Sinusitis Treatment Summary page for ways people report using it. (self-experimentation!)
Hi Sima,
I'm so glad to have stumbled across your website in search of a solution for sinus issues. I commend you for the thoughtful work you've done and continue to do in researching alternate treatments that treat the issue at the root, rather than provide a Band-Aid. I would like to try kimchi for my own sinus issues, but am confused at where to start. I live in Ontario, Canada and there are many health food stores that sell Kimchi. Is there anything in particular I should be looking for, or should I just go in with the expectation that everything will be trial and error and self-experimentation?
Yes, this is all self-experimentation using trail and error.
The best odds of kimchi having L. sakei and other beneficial microbes is that it must be live and not pasteurized, and refrigerated. Should contain garlic and perhaps also leeks, and it should be fairly fresh. My personal preference is vegan (no seafood in it) because I'm so cautious.
Wonderful, thank you for your quick response. I will do some experimentation and will update with results:)
Hi Sima,
It's been a couple of days since I purchased Kimchi from a local Farm Boy (similar to Whole Foods). I have been following the process you detailed twice daily. The morning after my first application I noticed my eyes were puffy and had a bit of a sinus headache. Not sure if this is related, or it could be that I have an allergy to one of the ingredients. My question to you is, if I haven't noticed any slight improvement in a couple of days, or worsening of symptoms, should I wait it out or try a whole new jar/brand all together?
If there is no improvement within 2 or 3 days, then it appears there is no L. sakei in the kimchi (so stop using it). And always, if one feels worse, then stop using the product. This is self-experimentation - may be good, no effect, or negative.
Ordered some Choi's kimchi immediately. But I thought about this question a couple hours after I ordered it. If you have to use it within a few days of opening because oxygen exposure will kill it...how do u get it to colonize the nasal/sinus cavities when we are breathing, well, oxygen? I was also under the impression that beneficial bacteria were aerobic anyway. Could u pls set me straight on this?
Thanks for this article! Amazing. Found it while searching for nasal cavity probiotics.
Lactobacillus sakei is anaerobic, which is why it eventually dies when exposed to oxygen for a while.
Much is unknown about microbes in the sinuses, but one possibility is that anaerobic microbes clump together in biofilms.
Many microbial species in the body are anaerobic, including the beneficial bacteria Faecalibacterium prausnitzii.
I have been suffering from blocked sinuses for more than 5 years now. I have tried various ayurvedic medicines which had minimal impact. I used to use Actigut capsules when I was still India but it had very minimal to no impact on my Sinus issue. However, recently, I started having probiotics. I had life brand 30 billion CFU capsules for 15 days but there wasn't much difference. At the same time, I started having a forkful of Kimchi daily and it didn't work much either. I switched to Genuine health 50 billion CFU tablets a week ago and it has worked wonders. I believe the slow release capsule is what made the difference. Also, I will go back and check if Life probiotics had LB Sakei in it or not. Either way, I'm convinced (so far) that slow release capsule is very important so that the bacteria reaches the intestines which is where you need it apparantly.
Rakesh, does the Genuine Health probiotic still help you?
Any experience with using Manuka honey?
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2012/04/11/chronic-rhinosinusitis-mrsa-biofilms-and-manuka-honey/
A number of people contacting me have reported trying Manuka honey, but that it did not work for them.
Thanks for your reply Sima
I have just started the B-2 culture.
Also interested if you think this may be another option as well... B-L-C 007 which contains:
Debaryomyces hansenii
Lactobacillus sakei
Pediococcus acidilactici
Pediococcus pentosaceus
Staphylococcus carnosus
Staphylococcus xylosus
I think B-2 is a much better option. For example, Debaryomyces hansenii is a yeast - it's considered non-pathogenic, and found in cheeses, sausages, and some beers. But...it may not be found in human sinuses. So effects unknown.
Lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria bacteria are the ones generally viewed as safe and also found in humans, which is why they are used in probiotics.
I'm currently in Bulgaria and there's a distributor that sells the B-2 packets right here in Sofia. I imagine they'd ship all over Europe. Website is admix.bg.
As a side note, it's been about 40 hours and I haven't noticed a huge improvement (using Q-tips to apply the L. Sakei). Should I keep applying it every day for a days/weeks? Or give it some time without additional application? When would I typically expect to feel improvement (such as stuffiness clearing up and the return of sense of smell)?
Thanks for the research!
If there is some improvement - then it might be working. Usually after a few days of use (typically by day 4) - there is big improvement (because the product is strong). Also, the sinuses can/will improve for a few days even after stopping using it. The stuffiness should improve before smell.
If there is no improvement, say in a total of 4 days of trying, then probably it's either: 1) L. sakei doesn't work for you, or 2) it's weak - maybe because it's not the freshest, or 3) it was killed during shipping for some reason (too hot, etc.).
Of course, if you feel worse - please stop using it.
My search for kimchi in tropical Singapore was almost fruitless - went to a Korean supermarket - asked the shop owner / attendant whether there was vegetarian kimchi available, to which he said, "no". Undeterred I went through all the kimchi packets available refrigerated and out of the 20plus varieties all made in Korea, only 3-4 didn't have some animal product in there and out of those only 2 had garlic in them. I picked up the white cabbage kimchi which didn't have any chili in it - it looked promising because it mentioned giving off a strong gas because of live fermentation which probably meant it was not pasteurized.
Had to cut the packet, took it out to transfer it quickly to an airtight container and a packet of "de-gassing" agent was included in the mix! and spooned out some clear juice, dabbed it on - and in a few minutes my sinuses became congested! Very disappointed. I'm trying to figure whether it really had L. sakei. Can it be that L. sakei will cause congestion? Is this an effect of living in the tropics with almost 100% relative humidity at times? I really hope not!
2 things left to try - the other kimchi brand and/or ordering B-2 from NZ, hopefully, fully frozen because the temperature here is a constant 82-94degsF in shade. Not considered room temperature in most of the globe.
I hope Lacto Sinus can start using the services / packaging from :
https://www.fedex.com/en-us/healthcare/cold-package.html
How frustrating for you!
I'm surprised that the kimchi caused immediate congestion - our and others experiences are that the spices in kimchi have a temporary decongestant effect.
But it definitely sounds like no L. sakei in it - if L. sakei helps a person, than sinus congestion diminishes.
By the way, the east coast of the US can feel tropical in the summer (high 90s and high humidity) - and the L. sakei works just fine all summer for us.
Any opinion on this product?
Pure-Sakei-Probiotic-Powder-Billion
It's a frozen L. sakei product - see frozen products section in the post.
I just tried the Sunja's mild white kimchi. I dabbed some on my finger and put the juice right on the inside of my nose. I might have sniffed a couple of times due to my cold but did not blow my nose for about 30 mins as per the directions. I had improvement in one day on one side so I did it on the other side as well. I have only done it twice total but now can hardly smell anything. My nasal passages are clearer but my sense of smell is significantly impaired. Have you had any reports of this happening?
No, have not heard of such a thing happening with kimchi, especially since it is a food and you used it as a "messy eater" - think of a toddler getting food into the nose, etc. You mention that you have a cold - could that be the issue?
If you suspect negative results - please don't use it anymore.
By the way, the spices in kimchi usually have a temporary decongestant effect.
I bought another brand of imported korean vegetarian red kimchi about 2 days ago, and have been trying the same method. It seems to be working - but only if I didn't eat! I find that if I ate it, it would trigger the histamines to rise quickly causing congestion. So without ingesting the kimchi, in about 5-10mins the congestion would slowly clear up for a few hours, and then die off. My question to your experience was - how often throughout the day did you have to apply the kimchi, for how many days before it took a permanent effect? My other question I can't quite grasp is - if l. Sakei is anaerobic, and the nose is FULL of oxygen : how does it take root to become part of the biome that prevents congestion? Thanks for sharing with us your journey, even so long after good results, really appreciate your blog... the field of probiotics and macrophages is a relative new one in western medicine.
Sorry Sima, I realized I didn't read your method statement fully. but would still like to understand the anaerobic stability of l. sakei in the sinus.
If you have better breathing for a few hours and then that ends - then it sounds like the spices in the kimchi were having a decongestant effect (this normally happens for a few hours after using kimchi). We applied kimchi about 2 x per day the first week when we started out 5 1/2 years ago, after that we cut back to 1 x per day until we felt healthy.
I followed the procedure of applying kimchi juice to my nostrils because this is what the original Abreu et al researchers did in 2012 (but with mice!).
It appears that L. sakei can definitely live for a while with oxygen exposure.
Some researchers have suggested that beneficial bacteria that normally die off with oxygen exposure are protected by biofilms (there is some research supporting this). Much is still unknown about the microbial communities of the sinuses.
I'm so grateful that this kimchi really works, I hope the store continues to survive and bring this particular brand in. It didn't really work on 1st try for about 5mins, probably because I didn't put it on generously.
Thanks so much for doing the research and sharing this to the public. I'm curious to know how the food companies isolate and grow this bacteria and how some remainder manages to survive in the nose... totally amazing!
Good to hear it's working.
L. Sakei is now available in Switzerland!!!
Name: Lactopia Probio Sinumed
At claresol.ch/lactopia-probio-sinumed
I found this powder from a german website.
lactopia de/produkt/probio-sinumed-bei-sinusitis
It contains Lactobacillus sakei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus plantarum und Bifidumbacterium lactis as they mention in the descreption. I wonder if this can work, because it is not frozen as the most products mentioned here. They say it can/should be used in nasal rinses. I ordered it and hope it works. I will report my findings. Hopes are high, despair is also. Greetings from Germany
Have you tried it yet? I hope it works, it would be great for us in Europe!
Sima, what do you think about this product?
Looks interesting. One person said it was weak, but that's all I've heard.
In the US, unlike Germany, no company is allowed to sell probiotics as a medical treatment - only as a dietary supplement.
You mentioned a few people 'feeling phlegmy' and producing 'yellow mucus' after using products containing s. salivarius in the form of a dental probiotic, and suggested that that's a bad thing.
I'm just wondering if that reaction was possibly a sign that the probiotic -- or a similar one -- was causing the immune system to react normally in such a way that it was helping to actually drain the infected sinuses, instead of say, drying them up?
Note that Martin above had the same reaction using a different mix, yet his 'slime' gradually turned clear and his infection too cleared up.
Two members of my family (including myself) found that it made us feel worse - as if we were getting sick with sinusitis and with yellow phlegm. We had been feeling great, sinuses perfect prior to trying S. salivarius (BLIS K12). We used BLIS K12 for 3 weeks straight (to really test it), and for the entire time did not feel right. Only improved after stopping the product and treating ourselves with kimchi. Other people contacting me reported similar effects.
However, I do not know if others have had positive results from it.
Bottom line: all our microbiomes are different - what works for one person, may not work for another.
Thanks for your reply Sima.
I found your site after reading about a similar product on Amazon that does indeed have positive reviews. Negative ones no doubt as well, but definitely positives. Dr. David Williams' Probiotic Advantage Oral Sinus Supplement for Your Mouth, Teeth, and Gums. I haven't tried it myself, but just might, as I still think (in my stubborn way) that perhaps some of these probiotics may work by helping the immune system get rid of (perhaps) hidden infections...helping them to drain out, thus manifesting as 'infections'. I haven't been able to find any link with salivarius causing infections.
Just one other point. You mentioned above avoiding any product with titanium dioxide in it, which yes, I would agree. I've found in the past however that the titanium is used to color the capsule white, so if one dumps the probiotics out of the capsule, then it's safe to consume.
Oops. Haste makes waste...
I meant to say above:
You mentioned avoiding any product with titanium dioxide in it, which yes, I would agree is important.
I couldn't get hold of any L Sakei in Sydney (out of stock in NZ at the time). I looked up research into related strains and found reference to L plantarum 299v. This strain is available in a single-strain probiotic made by Ethical Nutrients - Inner Health IBS support, 20 billion live bacteria in a capsule, to be kept refrigerated. I've used it 3 times to head of a sinus infection successfully, the way you describe (into nasal cavity and into mouth), only using a fraction of a cap at a time. Each time it worked with a night and morning application whereas in the past I'd have gone on to need antibiotics. V impressed.
It is great that L. plantarum works for you. Unfortunately it has not worked for me and my family, and for many other people. It just goes to show that everyone's sinus microbiome is different, and what works for one person may not work for another. Self-experimentation is the only way to find out!
Re your family's ill-effects from BLIS K12 supplements -- 2 other possibilities to think about :
1) you're describing effects that I get from formulations (of BLIS K12 or anything else) containing prebiotics. For some reason, most intentional (processed) prebiotics feed my yeastbeasties before anything else (though I'm fine with fresh fruits etc.).
2) Another distinction that I find helps: staying clear of products directly exposed to aluminum (e.g. aluminum inner-seals on jars).
I experience that supplements/foods, thus exposed, uptake enough aluminum to give me immediate ills (immune, digestive, structural, etc. — no need to wait for longer-term consequences), that last for weeks or months, or I can wash them out in a few days with massive doses of Mg malate (which is designed to chelate aluminum) — a clear demonstration, repeated for decades with many products. (Powders / liquids uptake more than tablets, which uptake more than capsules. Capsules I can open, and discard the outsides. Powders / liquids have the most direct exposure.)
do you know if this could be helpful for conditions other than sinusitis? I have vasomotor rhinitis, enlarged adenoids, but my sinuses showed clear on an x-ray. Would this bacterium be helpful for my condition?
People (myself included) have used Lactobacillus sakei for related conditions, such as bronchitis, cough and earaches. Only trying a Lactobacillus sakei product will answer the question of whether it will help.
The post What Else Can Lactobacillus Sakei Treat? may be helpful.
Has it occurred to anyone, it certainly has with me that my sinus problems are a mild form of cystic fibrosis. I may go thru some genetic testing to see if I in fact may have the gene that has the potential to cause it. I have to find out if my insurance will cover the genetic testing. I have had sinus problems for 40 years and just found this site today.
Nope, 2 totally different conditions. But it is true that people with cystic fibrosis have bacterial infections.
Researchers find that people with sinusitis have a bacterial imbalance of the sinus microbial community (sinus microbiome). Just treating with Lactobacillus sakei product easily treats sinusitis in many people.
I’ve just read as many comments as I could but I was wondering if anyone has had any luck getting rid of nasal polyps. I’ve suffered from chronic sinusitis for years and have just discovered that now I have nasal polyps! Yippee! My Lanto-sinus is in the mail and I’m hoping it will at least help with the constant sinus infection part of this. And then I can try and get rid of the polyps with tea tree and supplements and an anti inflammatory diet?
Doctors view nasal polyps as the result of chronic inflammation - whether from allergies or sinusitis.
They can be reduced/eliminated by nasal steroids - which lower the inflammation. Some people have reported improvement after using Lactobacillus sakei, because it lowers the inflammation and congestion due to sinusitis. Self-experimentation!
Tea tree oil unfortunately kills both beneficial and harmful bacteria, and so contributes to microbial imbalance.
Studies generally do not show benefits from vitamin/mineral supplements if one does not have a specific deficiency.
All studies show that chronic low grade inflammation can be reduced (and health improved many ways) by a dietary pattern rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes (beans) - along the lines of the Mediterranean diet.
Thank you for your response! I really appreciate it!
Hi sima,
You said the reason you started getting sinus infections was because you was exposed to mold.
I just wanted to ask did you have to go on an anti fungal diet?
We started getting sinus infections years ago because we were having an allergic response to too much mold in the house (from improperly installed A/C system).
As you know, all of us continuously and daily breathe in mold from the world around us, but in this case it was much too much.
We all also normally have bacteria, viruses, and fungi in our sinuses - but in a healthy person the microbial community is in balance.
After trying kimchi back in Feb. 2013 when I was very ill with sinusitis - the kimchi totally got rid of the sinusitis and all symptoms within 2 weeks. It absolutely felt like a miracle! (In the last few years I use Lanto Sinus when needed.)
So no - there was no need for anti-fungals of any sort.
No dietary changes were done (I eat everything including dairy, meat, and wheat - and lean toward a Mediterranean style diet - lots of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts, legumes.)
Lactobacillus sakei is anti-bacterial and dominates over pathogenic bacteria.
Some researchers think it dominates over other microbes also.
Thank you for you reply.
I just wanted to ask you question. I’ve never had a sinus infection before until I had turbinate reduction done on my nose and suddenly developed a fungal infection after. I know it’s fungal because antibiotics made it worse and I started an antifungal diet which helped but not fully got rid of.
Do you think the reason I’ve developed this infection is because of a inbalance of microbiome in my nose?
Absolutely. From modern tests (genetic sequencing) find that people with sinusitis have more of certain microbial species, less of other species, and less diversity of microbial species in general - as compared to healthy individuals without sinusitis. This is an imbalance of the sinus microbiome, and the sinusitis symptoms are a sign of the imbalance.
The antibiotics killed off bacteria (both good and harmful species), which allowed the fungi to multiply and move into their space. So have to displace them now to feel better. [See kimchi story]
Researchers, personal experiences, others contacting me feel that only localized treatment (into the nasal passages, swishing in the mouth) of a Lactobacillus sakei product works for sinusitis. Meaning that the beneficial bacteria have to get into the respiratory system for them to be effective.
This information is all very interesting.
I've had chronic sinusitus for many years. I'm a little concerned that if I break open a capsule and dab L. Sakei in my nose that it will cause a drying effect. I usually have to stay away from nasal sprays for this reason since my blood vessels are close to the surface and they can cause nose bleeds. Is this a possible issue that I may have to deal with if I try it or maybe based on sinus improvement I may just be able to stop using it after a certain number of days and then only as needed in the future?
Also, I take other probiotics orally already. Is there any known conflict between probiotics which may be an issue with this...maybe such as L. Salivarius?
There are 2 different ways to use Lactobacillus sakei powder - swish in mouth (with or without water), or mix some in water and dab/smear in nostrils. Any drying effect is in sinuses, not nostrils.
Everyone's sinus microbiome is different, so effects vary - but typical use is only a few days.
Use only when there are sinusitis symptoms. After improvement- stop.
It is unknown what mixing L. sakei with other probiotics can do.
It is known that Streptococcus salivarius (also called BLIS K12) may bring on sinusitis symptoms, even when it is used orally.
I tried the Lanto Health product for 9 days mostly using the extra boost method and received no noticeable benefit. I was very disappointed after being optimistic that I could finally improve my sinus issues.
Me too.
Hi guys! my questions about kimchi is that we need to buy a new jar of kimchi that do not have to be opened for 2 months, then we can use it?
But how about people that want to make their own kimchi? and if we put it in a jar how long we take to see the lkasei bacteria inside, specially if we opened after the 2 months?
In the moment that I open a jar i read that I destroy the bacteria but if I closed again for 2 months the bacteria will regrowth?
Sound really interesting topic to search more deeply.
A jar of kimchi should be opened about 2 weeks after being made (not 2 months). Some brands can be opened within a week.
The bacteria is Lactobacillus sakei - and it appears at only certain times during fermentation. It dies off by about 2 months after the kimchi is made (even if the jar has never been opened).
It will not reappear - other microbes take its place.
Yes, you can make your own kimchi. Just let it ferment at least a week or 2 before opening and trying it. And make sure the recipe includes garlic.
Lactobacillus sakei does not like oxygen - that is why once a store bought jar of kimchi is opened, we find it's only in there about a week.
Can you do sauerkraut instead? I tried the Lanto probiotics with no improvement. I tried one kimchi, from Costco with no luck. I might have to look from another health food store. I have had sinusitis for 7 years that has caused me chronic fatigue. I had nasal surgery 1.5 years ago but it worse now than ever. I also have GERD, etc. I tested my house for mold, negative. I think it might be from nail biting and nose picking.
Researchers find that the sinus microbiome is imbalanced in chronic sinusitis, but also that 1) everyone's sinus microbiome is unique, 2) healthy sinus microbiomes vary, and 3) people with chronic sinusitis vary in the microbes that are out-of-whack.(See post Microbes Live In Our Sinuses)
Lactobacillus sakei is found in healthy sinuses and is considered a keystone bacteria, but perhaps some other microbe could be the answer for you. Perhaps try swishing a probiotic with other Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium bacteria in the mouth (a gentle test) to see if this helps. Self-experimentation.
Fermented live kimchi has a variety of beneficial microbes which is why many people like it, but it can be tricky finding one that works for you.
Yes, people report success with fermented sauerkraut that also has garlic in it. (L. sakei grows on garlic).
Hi does anyone tried out the PROBIORINSE (L. Lactis) NASAL AND SINUS IRRIGATION SOLUTION WITH PROBIOTICS ?? Because the L. sakei needs refrigeration for shipping to other continents. Thanks in advance,
A well done study found that product (with L. lactis) does not work as a treatment for sinusitis. They also found that xylitol and ordinary saline rinses don't work.
This is also what people have been reporting to me for years.
By the way, I know that L. sakei (in the product Lanto Sinus) is shipped to other countries (in a cooler with cold packs) and that it holds up well.
Thanks very much for posting this information.
My husband has had chronic sinusitis since developing a sinus infection after visiting Louisiana in 2005. Like previous poster, he had hard mucus along with post nasal drip and mucus in the back of the throat. Throughout the day, he was hacking up mucus.
After 2 days on Lanto Sinus probiotic powder, he is finally getting relief. Last night, he did not snore or choke on mucus and wake up. No longer constantly clearing his throat. The bridge of the nose, and sinuses in cheeks & forehead are no longer swollen. As directed, he has been mixing with water; dabbing interior of the nose with a Qtip and swishing the rest around his mouth then swallowed as instructed. On average, he was using 16 kleenexes per day and now down to 2 kleenex tissues per day. When he blows his nose, it's just moisture not sticky stuff. Throat is starting to clear and voice is less gravelly. I have also tried and my sinuses are much clearer with just one treatment. (I am allergic to dust)
So far, so good. The powder is expensive $64 plus $26 in duties for delivery to Canada. Lanto sinus is shipped in insulated packaging with two cool packs to ensure that the culture remains viable. IMV, that seems to be a key element.
Also ordered Probiorinse before I came across your article. This product is a combination of salts as well as Lactococcus lactis. There are no guidelines for refrigeration storage. This may not be as effective as Lanto as the bacterial culture shelflife is not given and it's unclear how long the bacteria will persist. Previously available on Amazon so reviews are available; many commented that the product did not dissolve in water and that one had to warm the water then cool it to mix properly. Some users reported that results were about the same as NeilMed.
Good to hear he's showing improvement with Lanto Sinus.
Unfortunately, a well-done study found that people using Probiorinse (with Lactococcus lactis) did NOT show improvement - no symptom improvement and no sinus microbiome (microbial community) improvement. The same applied to xylitol, and regular saline rinses.
Also, this is what people have been reporting to me for years.
Btw, if you are testing probiotics in a scientific manner, than you need a "washout period" where nothing is done (usually at least 2 weeks) before starting another treatment. It definitely applies to Lanto Sinus - we have noticed that after stopping using it, the sinuses keep improving and changing for at least a week.
Also, when a person feels well - stop using it. (This applies to all gut probiotics also.) Our microbiomes have a balance when healthy - don't want to keep flooding it with a supplement.
Tried Probiorinse and it's no better than NeilMed. Did not work for either my husband or I.
With Lanto, I feel an improvement in my breathing within five minutes and felt totally congested after Probiorinse. My husband has continued to do well with Lanto. Since it's very expensive, we have modified our approach. We mix 5 g. with 2 Tbsp of water as directed. We decided to try sniffing the liquid from the small mixing spoon up each nostril while pressing the other nostril shut. This method seems to work extremely well. The rest of the mixture can be refrigerated and used for a few days. Swallowing the mixture seemed to irritate my throat.
This product is very expensive for Canadians ($64 for one bottle plus $26.00 for duty; weirdly the duty was $34 when I ordered 2 bottles). One bottle does 15 treatments....that's a bit like Viagra for pricing 🙂
Lanto Sinus also seems to help the tear duct system. The area under my eyes is no longer puffy...gives the face a more youthful appearance....always appreciated when you're 61.
Glad to hear that Lanto Sinus is working for both you and your husband!
Some thoughts:
Stop using it when you feel better. Then can use again as needed.
Over time you should need less and for a shorter duration. (yes, it's totally fine to cut the amount used)
After stopping using it, the sinuses will keep rebalancing (improving) for a few days.
By the way, L. sakei is also in some foods (fresh meat, seafood, vegetables, fermented foods) we eat and a normal part of a healthy gut microbiome. Also linked to health.